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Post by Hank on Jan 22, 2017 19:35:34 GMT -5
I wouldn't expect anybody to answer the phone on Sunday but I get your point. I must say though I've saw a lot of quality stuff come out of Elkman's, Hillbill's and others basements. But like you said when a man has a year long wait backlog his pricing isn't a problem. Not saying some good stuff can't come out of a basement,, but not every basement has Hillbill, Elkman or Richard working in it.
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Post by dennis on Jan 22, 2017 20:30:02 GMT -5
I know a local who does conversions and builds rifles out of his basement shop and does a thorough job, but I sent my conversion to Hank and had a HIS 209 bp installed and am very pleased with the performance. Never a ff even at 10 degrees out. If I would have had the $$ at the time I would have had the HIS lrp system, but I am not shooting the loads most of you guys are so I am not experiencing primers leaking. I thought that the local guy was using Hanks' plugs but recently found out he was using Lukes' plugs and it explains to me why he stated he put a .006 crush on the primers to get a seal. I let him know I did not have that problem with Hank's plug. No Hank doesn't pay me to advertise I'm just a happy customer.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 20:50:13 GMT -5
If a .006 crush fit is needed to get a seal, then it is not the same as the HIS system.
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Post by linebaugh on Jan 22, 2017 20:51:06 GMT -5
As of yet the LRMP systems are not the majority by a long shot but I suspect it will become, as it should be IMO, the future of smokeless muzzy and perhaps all muzzleoaders.
I know there are gobs of people whom will take offense to this but there is simply no way to seal a 209 system. Crush fit, shims, hand fit sanding, flame path length, flame path diameter, bushing size and the like might get a primer to seal on the nose and marginally keep the primer intact but it makes no difference because they still leak between the carrier cup and the actual primer. There is absolutely no way the 209 can not leak from the rear as it is not supported in any way so the thin carrier needs to hold the pressure which it simply cant do. No way no how. How many mushroomed 209 pictures have been uploaded at this point? How many hundreds, perhaps thousand of posts have been made about 209s not sealing and how to fix them? How many 209 systems have we read about having ignition problems needing boosters and other fixes? How many guns have been sold, rebuilt, changed plugs and so on trying to get a 209 system to seal?
A very simple and straight forward analogy. Shotgun primers are built to run in a shotgun at a max pressure of about 15,000 PSI. Brass rifle cases and primers are loaded to the 65,000 pressure range frequently.
I'm not saying 209 does not work because I still have one and it works. It also shows some flame cutting on the bolt face where the 209s leak around the cup and I only shoot 40,000 psi loads in it.
As far as the money involved in going smokeless goes I would make one very simple point. If you are not a high volume shooter and only want to shoot a few deer each season why bother with the whole smokeless idea. Blackhorn 209 is a darn good powder and there are a lot of great in-line non smokeless muzzys out there so why not just save the expense all together?
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Post by m4madness on Jan 22, 2017 21:15:55 GMT -5
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Post by doug136 on Jan 22, 2017 21:23:09 GMT -5
Just gonna give you my opinion . I have been buying guns and having guns built like it's my Job . I have a buddy that has had a couple of guns also built in the last year. There are lots of great builders out there and most of the accuracy comes from the barrel and breech plug BUT ! ! ! If you want a trouble free gun that you do not have to tinker with , then Jeff Hankins is your man . It's very hard for any builder to please everyone but I think Jeff has the best track record of the majority of gun builders . Again you can't please everyone but it seems like he has the least amount of complaints . I'm not knocking any builders just a observation . Cheaper is definitley not always better and what seems cheaper often cost you more money in the long run . I'm speaking from life experiences not just guns! Lol for what it's worth ! Good luck with your build no matter who builds your gun and let us know how things turn out .
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Post by doug136 on Jan 22, 2017 21:35:01 GMT -5
Oh ya I have a gun now that has leaking 209 primers . Ya it would be ok if I just hunted but I shoot hundreds and hundreds of shots because of wanting to compete . I tried the shims to fix a leaking 209 this weekend . That is a JOKE ! and did not work worth a crap for me . The shims deformed and fell out after a couple shots ! Shims are not a good fix for someone that shoots a lot !
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Post by hillbill on Jan 22, 2017 22:49:50 GMT -5
As I have said before, Jeff's system works great, is there anything out there better? NO, including any 209 system out there. nobody knows better than I do, I have had many many 209 guns and still have a couple, I have had several with the HIS system and still have a couple. Bottom line Buy what you can afford and what you think you will like, not everyone wants or needs a high dollar high performance muzzleloader. when you enter the smokeless world you have opened the door to high performance but along with that goes a greater risk.. there are differing levels of these guns for sure. obviously Jeff's guns are top shelf, buy one and you will be pleased with the priming system and the accuracy. If you have really deep pockets then check with Tom Post, his stuff is a work of art BUT his price reflects that, just as Jeff does this stuff for a living so does Tom, they have to pay their bills and keep the lights on. If Jeff's prices were too high he wouldn't stay snowed under now would he?? they can be built in the garage obviously with differing levels of sucess and at a lower cost (sometimes) but not everyone has the know how or the stuff to do it with or the want to. As far as the 209 vs LRMP debate it will never end, it's that simple. some will stay with the 209s, others with LRMP, I will always use both, you see I know the merits of both systems and yes a 209 can be made to seal 100% without gas cutting. No a 209 cannot take direct pressure as can a LRMP, that's the big advantage it has over the 209, you have a very short flame path in Jeff's plug and the primer CAN take the direct pressure, the 209 plug must have a longer flame path with a back pressure reducer via the bushing or vent liner and a expansion chamber (flame path), the LRMP does not HAVE to have a bushing, it can take direct pressure, it was designed to do so. A side by side comparison of the HIS and the ASG 209 plug HIS very short flame path (more usable barrel space to burn powder) and obviously direct fire to powder ADVANTAGE 100% seal ADVANTAGE typically higher velocities ADVANTAGE plug and play ADVANTAGE DISADVANTAGE? primer modules to keep up with and prime which I don't see as a problem module cost? some don't like having to buy them, keep up with them and prime them ASG 209 longer flame path, less usable barrel........little less than an inch DISADVANTAGE? harder to get 100% seal...........it is doable DISADVANTAGE? easier for the garage mechanic (me).......... ADVANTAGE 209 primer availability vs keeping up with and priming modules........... ADVANTAGE to some, to others? not much primer cost is pretty much a wash between the two other factors come into play such as which action, CF vs ML, break action and cost of parts Is there a clear cut winner? OF course there is! which ever you like best! Like I said, buy what you can afford and think will be a fit for you BUT please don't talk down someone else for spending whatever they want on a higher end gun, all that does is cause a pee pee match. there is room in this game for everyone that wants to play but I still Say IT'S NOT FOR EVERYONE!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 23:44:11 GMT -5
Well put Bill.
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Post by boonechaser on Jan 23, 2017 6:13:53 GMT -5
Like I said, buy what you can afford and think will be a fit for you BUT please don't talk down someone else for spending whatever they want on a higher end gun, all that does is cause a pee pee match. there is room in this game for everyone that wants to play but I still Say IT'S NOT FOR EVERYONE! Couldn't agree more but at the off chance this is directed to me (as it seems to be intended) instead of a general comment..... I went back and deleted most my post as I thought maybe I shouldn't have said anything about cost (even though anyone ordering, knows the cost) but every post was quoted so they're still visible. Was never a conversation about how great the 209 system is or how inferior the LRMP's are or vise versa. I know what system works best and the reason I've held out, to have a build done. So please go back and find one (you won't) where I knocked the LRMP, Jeffs price, or why people spend so much or anyone else did!? The pee pee match was started by the crowd (well such as yourself) that took offense for ? For the life of me, I can't figure it out other than being fanboy zealots, just like the other board... Ive ran businesses and know exactly what overhead is so thanks for the lesson but truly, not needed! So, now we have three full pages of people defending something that was never questioned and is useless information on this thread.
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Post by speedrackin on Jan 23, 2017 6:50:20 GMT -5
As of yet the LRMP systems are not the majority by a long shot but I suspect it will become, as it should be IMO, the future of smokeless muzzy and perhaps all muzzleoaders. I know there are gobs of people whom will take offense to this but there is simply no way to seal a 209 system. Crush fit, shims, hand fit sanding, flame path length, flame path diameter, bushing size and the like might get a primer to seal on the nose and marginally keep the primer intact but it makes no difference because they still leak between the carrier cup and the actual primer. There is absolutely no way the 209 can not leak from the rear as it is not supported in any way so the thin carrier needs to hold the pressure which it simply cant do. No way no how. How many mushroomed 209 pictures have been uploaded at this point? How many hundreds, perhaps thousand of posts have been made about 209s not sealing and how to fix them? How many 209 systems have we read about having ignition problems needing boosters and other fixes? How many guns have been sold, rebuilt, changed plugs and so on trying to get a 209 system to seal? I'm not saying 209 does not work because I still have one and it works. It also shows some flame cutting on the bolt face where the 209s leak around the cup and I only shoot 40,000 psi loads in it. As far as the money involved in going smokeless goes I would make one very simple point. If you are not a high volume shooter and only want to shoot a few deer each season why bother with the whole smokeless idea. Blackhorn 209 is a darn good powder and there are a lot of great in-line non smokeless muzzys out there so why not just save the expense all together? Linebaugh , I think thats the first time ive actually read anywhere in both boards "A very simple and straight forward analogy. Shotgun primers are built to run in a shotgun at a max pressure of about 15,000 PSI. Brass rifle cases and primers are loaded to the 65,000 pressure range frequently. " Ive had numerous conversations with people regarding this i agree 100% i believe the 209 is simply a short cut ...... just like dropping pellets was in the black power sub scheme of things vs pouring and measuring people wanted simple easy . Lrmp is the fine tune precise system . The old saying you get what you pay for JMO
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Post by hillbill on Jan 23, 2017 7:00:41 GMT -5
I have not followed this thread from start to finish so I don't know what all has been said, my comments are not directed toward anyone, only put out there for information and the comparison I offered is there for guys that have never used both systems, yes it was a general comment and not meant for offence to anyone. My job here is to head off pee pee matches before they start, not fuel the fire. take no offence to anything I said, there was no pun intended.
I have seen many instances on the other board and a few here when someone lets cost reflect on their view of someones gun or accessories, be it a 500.00 Apex or a Swinglock full custom they all fall under the SML envelope and it's our job here to give out credible information for the members to decide what direction they want to travel, it's up to them...
Have a great week guys!
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Post by dennis on Jan 23, 2017 9:16:34 GMT -5
If a .006 crush fit is needed to get a seal, then it is not the same as the HIS system. That was my point when I talked to the man.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jan 23, 2017 10:43:22 GMT -5
Swinglock still offers his highend rifles in 209 correct?
BTW if you have any doubts a 209 system cant seal, you should look at a NULA. They headspace on the primer rim and do it very well. The entire primer is supported including the rim. Im sure a LRP can handle more pressure but a 209 does very well if built right.
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Post by doug136 on Jan 23, 2017 13:40:25 GMT -5
Both work , I hope my comments did not come off negative. Good luck with your build
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Post by Richard on Jan 23, 2017 17:27:01 GMT -5
To keep this simple.............I have both HIS and 209 rifles. Both Brux barrels now, about the same length. My 209 seals very well as does the HIS. Accuracy wise, I do not see any difference and the velocities are approximately the same. So, it kind of depends on whether you have a CF action (HIS) available or a ML (209) action as to which system you use.
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Post by leftyml on Jan 23, 2017 20:41:23 GMT -5
On Lukes site under services,$305 for plug- modules and installation. For$20 more, Hank gets my money.
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Post by Kyle on Jan 24, 2017 20:04:56 GMT -5
A Hankins Ignition System = NO SANDPAPER REQUIRED!
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