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Post by Richard on Jan 13, 2017 21:01:13 GMT -5
I have laid back a little on this thread watching it take its course. I have two muzzle loaders........one is a 700 ML (209) and my newest one I installed Jeff's system and they both work. There are some small pro's and con's with both but properly put together with the right loads they can shoot accurately equally as well. Jeff's is definitely the way to go with a CF action and it works very well. Since there apparently is no patent on Jeff's system its a no brainer to duplicate and that is what has happened.
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Post by doug136 on Jan 14, 2017 0:03:13 GMT -5
Richard I agree with everything you said . It's a good idea and Jeff obviously does not have a patent . So good ideas are copied . That's not my beef . This is what bothers me . What if I told you that your duplexes were stupid and not needed then turned around sold the idea ? All of the sudden now duplexing is like white sliced bread ? That's what bothers me . I won't say any more about it . JEFF take it as a compliment because it is a big compliment !
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Post by kskaggs on Jan 14, 2017 7:26:07 GMT -5
M4, That's everything you need I just looked the numbers up. kevin
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Post by ourway77 on Jan 14, 2017 7:49:52 GMT -5
Mr Hankin's has nothing to worry about he has more work than he can handle and the reason being the Quality of his work I would have loved to have one of his rifles but at my age I don't know how many years I have left or how many more I will be able to hunt each year it's becoming a little harder
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Post by elkman1310 on Jan 14, 2017 9:40:51 GMT -5
I have always been in the 209 camp. When everything is done right it is the most user friendly and cheapest way to go. 100 primers for $4.00 is hard to argue with. Accuracy is equal to any LRMP system. Also the gun requires no FFL registration which a lot of law abiding people like. After all it is a muzzleloader.
Jeff definitely makes the best system if you want to go that route. All you need to do is watch a Bad Bull video of how to load and unload a Bad Bull muzzleloader it is a absolute joke and yet people buy into that BS and over pay a lot of money for that muzzleloader. I wouldn't waste my time and money on a Bad Bull muzzleloader period.
For me I will keep building 209 guns. I don't have to build any if I choose not to. I am retired and I only build a few muzzleloaders and rifle rests per year the results of my products speak for them selves The very best 1,000 yard shooters in the USA use my rests and also some of these same people have my muzzleloaders
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Post by kskaggs on Jan 14, 2017 10:03:07 GMT -5
My neighbor has a bad bull and a joke is an understatement!! I laugh my butt off every time he takes that slide hammer and puts the bullet down the barrel!!
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Post by boonechaser on Jan 14, 2017 10:11:04 GMT -5
Richard I agree with everything you said . It's a good idea and Jeff obviously does not have a patent . So good ideas are copied . That's not my beef . This is what bothers me . What if I told you that your duplexes were stupid and not needed then turned around sold the idea ? All of the sudden now duplexing is like white sliced bread ? That's what bothers me . I won't say any more about it . JEFF take it as a compliment because it is a big compliment ! If you read Luke's post, you can tell he still prefers to do the 209 system and thinks there is no reason to use LRPM. He is just trying to get into another market and expand his customer base by offering options. To me it is evident in his opening line "For those that just have to use a LRMP" I have used 209's with no issue and believe it is personal preference. I have to say I don't like how Jeff was treated on the other board but most that are in one camp or the other are definitely kinda closed minded and have a "clique" attitude. As an end user and hunter, I definitely appreciate the options!
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doc12
New Member
Posts: 46
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Post by doc12 on Jan 14, 2017 10:29:32 GMT -5
For someone who deer hunts only and does no range shooting with a muzzleloader, would you guys recommend 209 or large rifle primers? I picked up a .45-70 CVA Apex and it has not been converted yet. I'll most likely be using IMR 4198 and a 200-grain SST in a light blue Harvester sabot. I doubt that I'd be doing much hunting below 20 degrees, if at all. I bought a CVA Apex 45/70 a few years ago and had it converted using a Savage breech plug and 209 primer. I finally tried to shoot it last year and my initial test with the 209 primer and 4198 powder, a light blue harvester sabot with a 195 gr Barnes was failure to ignite. Some of it may have been my fault as I was using a clean barrel. I finally got it shooting after fouling the barrel with a 209 primer but didn't like the fact I had to pry the primer out of the pocket with a tool. I read about Jeff's HIS system for break opens and bought a new 45/70 barrel, sent it to him for conversion and haven't looked back since. In fact, I bought a TC Encore 45/70 barrel and had Jeff convert that as well for my Encore with the HIS system. It goes off overtime with VV N110 or H4198 and is a very easy system to use. What I like best is I kept the extractor on the Apex and when I open it after a shot, the module pops right out. I ended up selling my other 45/70 209 converted Apex barrel over on Doug's. Just my experience and good luck in your decision.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Jan 14, 2017 11:26:49 GMT -5
Mr Hankin's has nothing to worry about he has more work than he can handle and the reason being the Quality of his work I would have loved to have one of his rifles but at my age I don't know how many years I have left or how many more I will be able to hunt each year it's becoming a little harder To me all of these rifles are heirlooms. I love evryone I have.... and look forward tk passing them on. I wish SO VERY BAD that I had just one of my grandfathers guns. I may get the one that my mother bought for my dad wheN I was a baby for him to hunt with. He took me 3 or 4 times in my life. BUT mother used it a lot. Its an old bolt action Mossberg .410. Babbling. Ourway get uourself one...enjoy it and then pass it on for others to enjoy Drop
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Post by doug136 on Jan 14, 2017 11:34:44 GMT -5
Amazing ! My first shotgun when I was a kid was a used .410 Mossberg . I've shot more rabbits and squirrels with that gun than any other ! Your right all my guns also are special in some sort of way and I also look forward to passing them on. Well said
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Post by m4madness on Jan 14, 2017 12:19:30 GMT -5
I change firearms like underwear, so none of mine will ever be heirlooms. Lol! I've literally owned hundreds of firearms in my 49 years, but perhaps no more than a dozen at a time, and the oldest firearm in my safe is 13 years old-- and I sold it once to a coworker then bought it back years later.
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Post by Richard on Jan 14, 2017 16:54:38 GMT -5
Doug.........I give you another two for instances........ Back when I first got into the .50 Savage ML I was having all kinds of accuracy problems. I wanted to shoot a lot of different loads but despised having to wait "FIFTEEN" minutes between loads. So, I started experimenting with blowing air from a fish take compressor down into the bottom of the barrel forcing the heat out the top. It worked to a degree but not great. I then got a PM from Edge who told me about a bronze rod he would put in his cooler and then insert in the barrel to cool it. The thing is, he NEVER posted anything about it on the forum.........so I picked up on the idea and made mine out of aluminum. Then I designed a upright (4" PVC) insulated cooler to hold ice/water with a lid. The more I shot and described the COOL ROD the more I got heat from some of the guys and some praise from others. The thing is, it worked and eliminated the long wait in between saboted shots. The next thing I know, Rossman starts selling these rods? Look, no patent, it was Edges idea to start with, so no harm and life goes on? Then I started doing the THIRD PILLAR on the Savages with my THUMB SCREW. People had been putting in the third pillar but still retained the factory bolt that goes up thru the trigger guard. I converted a socket head screw with a knurled aluminum knob that I press fit over the socket head. I milled a flat on the trigger guard so this knob would fit flush. It never had to be tightened other than hand tight as it now only retained the bolt from coming out of the action. The new THIRD screw along with the forward screw held the action in place. So, the next thing I know, Rossman is selling "thumb screws?" Here again .......so what? We are in a sport where a lot of stuff is the brain child of some tinkerer and not patented? So there will always be copying. We know Jeff designed the HIS and Luke is a copier. And life goes on............................ Look at bullets.........Nosler has Ballistic tips, Hornady had V-max's and Sierra has Blitzkings? ???All basically the same. Look at all the Mauser clones that have appeared in the last 100 years. A good many of the custom actions copy the Remington footprint with just minor changes. It just goes on and on.
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Post by Hank on Jan 14, 2017 19:12:35 GMT -5
Guys,,, Good ideas are going to be copied,,, heck I have even copied a few. I have no problem with my system being copied, that just proves it works and other people want to copy it and market it also. The only thing is,,, what Doug is saying,,, bad mouth it for years then copy it and claim its great..... I copied Luke's plug, but I said at the very beginning I thought it was a good design. I copied it and sell it for half of what he is asking for it and I don't charge you $13.00 to ship a 6.80 Priority mail box. The 3 piece rods were originally done by a man name Mac if I remember correctly and they have been copied by many, I sell those also, the sizing dies, same thing.. Mine is different in many ways, but the end result is the same.....Bullets,,, same thing,, I don't make bullets but there is only one way to make a copper jacket bullet with a lead core, so who is coping who..... It all comes down to making a good product at a fair price and offering good customer service,,, If Luke wants to make a LRMP system than that's ok with my, he aint the first one to do it.... wont be the last...
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Post by doug136 on Jan 14, 2017 19:12:36 GMT -5
As always Richard your right .You guys have came up with all kinds of good ideas.
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Post by leftyml on Jan 14, 2017 20:27:59 GMT -5
From a guy who went from black to prodex to blackhorn and finally smokeless, I say thank you to all who have come up with new and better ways to shoot muzzleloaders.
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Post by itneverends22 on Jan 15, 2017 7:49:59 GMT -5
From a guy who went from black to prodex to blackhorn and finally smokeless, I say thank you to all who have come up with new and better ways to shoot muzzleloaders. +1
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Post by slammer on Jan 15, 2017 11:33:38 GMT -5
I don't post much but I have to put my two cents in on this one I also went form black powder to blackhorn 209 and now some smokeless but mostley blackhorn because of the laws in the states I hunt. What Ive found in my 30 plus years of doing this is that thay bouth work but the LRMP is just so much cleaner its my preferred way to go when I can just my 2 cents thanks Bobby
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Post by oneshotike on Jan 15, 2017 12:14:26 GMT -5
My eyes hurt......
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Post by Hank on Jan 15, 2017 12:20:57 GMT -5
Your face should be hurting from the slapping it took over there last couple of days...
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Post by boonechaser on Jan 15, 2017 12:21:06 GMT -5
Love the avatar oneshot!!
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