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Post by flattopusa on Feb 17, 2023 11:10:04 GMT -5
Why isn’t any CF guys talking about ice in their barrel? Just a question….. I am sure that ice, frost, moisture/humidity/temps play a part in CF firearms as well. What we experience is a hard seating bullet that tells us that something is different from the previous shot....of course a CF shooter would not notice that. I had shot CF firearms up until a few years ago (when I got in to muzzle loaders)and never gave this issue a thought. I still use CF rifles for some of my hunting and this issue really is of no concern to me. A CF firearm also pushes powder fouling (to one degree or another) ahead of the bullet and out of the bore when it is fired, whereas the powder fouling in a muzzle loader is left in the bore and then we have to load the next bullet with the fouling in the bore. Normally under all the conditions I have shot my SML at the subsequent bullets load easily and the rifle is accurate....it was just this one time (high humidity and cold temps) that I had a VERY tight fitting bullet.
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 17, 2023 12:17:23 GMT -5
Buckeye68 i dont know many cf shooters that actually Look down their bores . Heck how many muzzleloader guys actually do it either with a pocket LED flashlight ?? Nobody i hunt or shoot with ever has . Yet flahlights are carried and used walking out before dawn or back in after dark when hunting . I Always have one on me year round . Most years gun shows in Michigan in the spring are loaded with cf rifles that something bulged their barrels . Pretty common here . So were they overpressured or did they have obstructions ?? From mid barrel to the muzzle id bet on a obstruction . Youd never know if it was snow or ice but yet the barrel is bulged . Ive been burned with such purchases and some bought them back too . My buddy lost his '06 from his folks for a graduation present not ever looking down his barrel . It happens unfortuneately . My dad drilled this into me hunting birds and bunnies in fall & winter to Make Sure Nothing was in that shotguns barrel growing up . I can only guess many kids never got that careing instruction ?? Glad i did .
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 17, 2023 14:04:05 GMT -5
Shoot a cleaner burning powder. Seems less rather than more are having these issues. Id think everybody is shooting the cleanest burning most accurate loads they can ?? Be silly not too ?? Ballistic with his 40 has at times the Double Trouble of bh209 and Reloader 15(?) as well with 325 pittmans over a mountain of powder . What about those like him ?? Few as that may be ?? Other 40 shooters too that cant achieve the elusive clean burn no swabbing/brush required between shots ?? Granted not everybody fits in here but that doesnt make those that do less important . That wouldnt be very cool at all would it ?? I know of nobody but Flatopusa that shoots a paper patch or a 44 but i like what he does too and ive found myself learning from him as well . Quality stuff even with the differences . Id think theres room for everybody , dont you ?? We may experiance this phenomenon more than what some may , but one fine day Nature may call upon the majority too .
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Post by SURESHOT on Feb 17, 2023 16:36:04 GMT -5
with the obstruction issue, wanted to share this that happened with one here. To start with it was a centerfire but what happened in his loading area an enclosed room in the garage a DIRT dobber built a nest in the barrel of a 300 win mag, blew the extractor out. the only way he found out a few days later he viewed one going in a barrel,,,,,
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Post by buckeye68 on Feb 17, 2023 17:46:01 GMT -5
Sideshow-
You said all ideas are on the table. I’m thinking OUTSIDE the box here.
You can build a warming rod out of aluminum (just the opposite of a cooling rod for those hot summer shooting days) to warm your barrel to a nice constant 70 degrees. All you would have to do is slide it down your barrel just like your ram rod and plug it in to a lithium ion batteries for extended hunting days. It also has two other advantages- 1st is you can use it for a ram rod and 2nd it can be used as a hand warmer for those long cold days.
I can send you a set of napkin prints that I sketched out for a prototype if you’re interested.
It’s just a thought I had last Saturday morning when I woke up at 5:30am before I went shooting in KY at the Polar Bear shoot.
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Post by buckeye68 on Feb 17, 2023 17:47:14 GMT -5
No laughing….
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 17, 2023 18:54:29 GMT -5
Why not just post the drawing ?? That works for me . This way anybody interested has the opportunity to make one .
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Post by buckeye68 on Feb 17, 2023 19:31:50 GMT -5
Why not just post the drawing ?? That works for me . This way anybody interested has the opportunity to make one . I will be more than glad to, just didn’t think anyone would want to see them. I’ll post them when I get back into the country.
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Post by ballistic on Feb 17, 2023 20:34:33 GMT -5
Shoot a cleaner burning powder. Seems less rather than more are having these issues. I agree with a cleaner powder. The .40 cal and 325 grain bullets - make it a challenge compared to plug and play 4198 loads in a .45. I switched back to RL15 and haven’t experienced the issue again. I also load immediately and I think that helps. The affects of humidity are real. I’m warm temps high humidity will slow a bullet. Will it matter on shorter distances up to 300 yards - likely not. Further yes. I’m still trying to nail down what humidity/ dew does to a really cold barrel. Dew point is created when vapor pressure turns from a gas to a liquid. Could frost form inside a barrel ? I believe it can if humidity can be trapped in your powder or barrel. If not what slows a bullet in warmer high humid temps? With centerfire a simple test can be done on reloading. Dry powder of its moisture and then seal the loaded case with a bullet. Then on a few other rounds -add moisture/ in high humidity ( let it sit out in 90% humidity air for 24 hours) to the same powder and load the case and seal it. Then shoot the dry vs the high humid powder. You will loose velocity every time vs the dry powder. I have seen losses of 40-50 fps on centerfire and similar with smokeless muzzleloaders. So I believe the affects are real with humidity. But you are correct in your statement that less are having this issue. It’s rare. And cleaner burning powder wins every time. Trying to find the magic combo on the .40 isn’t easy.
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 17, 2023 21:05:24 GMT -5
with the obstruction issue, wanted to share this that happened with one here. To start with it was a centerfire but what happened in his loading area an enclosed room in the garage a DIRT dobber built a nest in the barrel of a 300 win mag, blew the extractor out. the only way he found out a few days later he viewed one going in a barrel,,,,, My dad had trouble with those mud dobbers always plugging up the crankcase vent and water pump tell tale on his outboard 4 cylinder 4 cycle motors on his boat . Dipped them hoses in STP occasionly fixed that for him . Thats really scarey to have that going on in a gun !!!
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 22, 2023 15:40:18 GMT -5
This Michigan weather is NUTS !!! Weve been having Fools Spring up here in the 60s , and today takes the cake . It hasnt been below freezeing here in A While . Today my Mulberry tree right along with all the others are encapsulated in ice !!! Its a just a little foggy and the thermometer on the garage says 35* which is accurate . The National Weather Service reports 88% humidity and a 29* dew point . This is crazy !!! How IS this happening ?? My truck is iced over too and the ground is covered in ice . There is ALOT we dont know or understand about Natures happenings...... I would have Never thought this would be the outcome of the conditions going on right now before my eyes !!! Trees are actually straining under the weight of this ice as every twigg is covered heavily !!! The air just feels wet or damp . Definately not that cold to think this .
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Post by buckeye68 on Feb 22, 2023 18:32:31 GMT -5
This Michigan weather is NUTS !!! Weve been having Fools Spring up here in the 60s , and today takes the cake . It hasnt been below freezeing here in A While . Today my Mulberry tree right along with all the others are encapsulated in ice !!! It’s a just a little foggy and the thermometer on the garage says 35* which is accurate . The National Weather Service reports 88% humidity and a 29* dew point . This is crazy !!! How IS this happening ?? My truck is iced over too and the ground is covered in ice . There is ALOT we dont know or understand about Natures happenings...... I would have Never thought this would be the outcome of the conditions going on right now before my eyes !!! Trees are actually straining under the weight of this ice as every twigg is covered heavily !!! The air just feels wet or damp . Definately not that cold to think this . Sounds like you had the perfect day for testing.
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 24, 2023 16:46:16 GMT -5
Lol , yea i looked at my test pieces hung level in the sun and shade . -clean pipe - iced inside -Eezoxed pipe -iced but no death grip of ice inside and slightly less -antifreeze swabbed - iced -Eezox applied , dried then cat crap applied - micro thin ice but only for 9 hrs or so does it hold up applied to a clean inside surface . Thats how those anti-fogging treatments work . They absorb the moisture and spread it micro thin .
This was the worst ice storm in 50yrs they claim . Power lines and trees covered with 3/4" of ice and down everywhere !!! 504,000 without power . No bussiness open , no traffic lights , most with no heat either . Been busy takeing care of my bussiness , Lost a tree . Im well past IF this happens and im also very sure its Worse with fouling present to absorb the moisture . The fouling i believe is a real problem under these conditions . For a 1st shot clean bore winter shooter i may have found my answer on that initial shot . No i havent shot it yet with both Eezox and cat crap . I dont expect the cat crap to survive that . But for me at least 50% Victory isnt all bad !!! Persistance and a innovation i guess pays off a bit .....i hope a bullet wont snow-plow me a obstruction . May be Sunday or later before power is restored . Finally got the generator running too . Heat again will be nice .
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Post by ballistic on Feb 27, 2023 8:43:39 GMT -5
Update on humidity. Test was done with a barrel and bullets and sealed powder vials that sat outside overnight to get completely cold. Barrel was initially 2 degrees colder than the beginning air temp. I did some testing in 76% humidity (with some light snow)in temps that started at 32 and warmed to 36 degrees. I was testing out a new powder to see how it would load (time based) without cleaning. The first 3 shots I waited 5-7 min, then shot # 4- 20 minutes later. The last shot #5 (where I noticed humidity) was at 1 hour. My procedure is after replacing the direct module I place the funnel inside the brake. I then pour the powder and then check with a flashlight to see if it’s at the bottom. When checking w the pen light I could see lots of small scratch marks inside the barrel. After looking closer I could see a really thin layer of humidity (looked like steam) that went down the barrel about 5-6”. The small scratch marks were from the powder I had just poured down the tube. This left me wondering what to do as I wanted to load right at the 1 hour mark. I should have dry patched but decided to see what a wool wad would do. I pushed the wool wad with the rod about 1/2 way down the barrel. The pen light revealed that the wad had scraped the moisture away. I then seated the 325 pitman. It was much harder to push but went down the tube with some extra effort but wasn’t horrible either - just took my whole hand with some extra force.
The barrel was at 39 degrees when I loaded and had been at 44 degrees 1 hour prior after firing round number 4. I don’t know if the moisture had anything to do with the stiffer loading as I purposely waited 1 hour without any cleaning to reload. I’m sure the carbon hardened a lot in 1 hour.
I did not see this on my 1st 4 shots with the last of 4 spaced at 20 minutes to reload.
I can only speculate as to what caused this. I was shooting in a covered range but had light snow at 76% humidity. I believe the core of a barrel is much hotter than we realize. The hot core warms the air. The warm air holds/carries moisture. When that air is cooled the dew point is met where the vapor pressure allows moisture to form. Why it didn’t happen at 5 min and 20 min intervals I do not know. Why it happened at the 1 hour mark (moisture could have been in the barrel much longer ?) I do not know. Outside air temp was at 36 degrees and the barrel was at 39 degrees - so after 1 hour the barrel was still 3 degrees warmer than the air temp. Barrel was shaded so the sun didn’t affect its temps. It takes a long time to completely cool a brux 17- that’s why I leave the barrel/whole gun outside overnight. My speed raised 19 fps but that was likely from the additional pressure to load the round. This test was done with a .40 caliber muzzy using varget powder. So far it’s the cleanest powder I have tried. More testing is needed before it can be proven to be a good combo. The above is just an observation. Humidity was without a doubt inside the bore. According to dew point at 76% it should have taken a temp difference of 6 degrees to create dew. Was I within or outside those parameters -you tell me…..
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Post by flattopusa on Feb 27, 2023 17:54:44 GMT -5
I think you proved that humidity/moister/dew point mixed with powder fouling will cause a bullet to load hard....some on here have stated that even in hot/humid weather that happens. Your temps (and theirs) were not below freezing....add below freezing temps to the mix and that could compound the problem. The wool wad might have eased the loading a bit with the bore in that condition. I want to try the dry patch...if you beat me to it let me know. Right now its warmer than I would like for the test (50's and 60's) and would need to cool off considerably before I try it. Good info ballistic!
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 27, 2023 19:43:32 GMT -5
I think you proved that humidity/moister/dew point mixed with powder fouling will cause a bullet to load hard....some on here have stated that even in hot/humid weather that happens. Your temps (and theirs) were not below freezing....add below freezing temps to the mix and that could compound the problem. The wool wad might have eased the loading a bit with the bore in that condition. I want to try the dry patch...if you beat me to it let me know. Right now its warmer than I would like for the test (50's and 60's) and would need to cool off considerably before I try it. Good info ballistic! Ive been thinking about this patching . Especially while in the field on a hunt . It just might be a good idea to use a hoop patch holder rather than a jag so we dont loose our patch in the bore !!! Its either that or the patch wrapped around a brush it seems to me . Id hate to loose a patch down there while in the woods !!! I patch the brush . Ballistic i agree with Flatopusa on another excellent post . Flatopusa im also in agreement that this is proven . I also tenitiveally congratulate Ballistic on a new powder and load !!! Both very well done !!! We just got up here another one of those ice storms Today . This one hit 75 miles further north so in my area it was just rain . 5 days since the last storm hit and well over a 100,000 folks still dont have power just in my area !!!
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Post by flattopusa on Feb 28, 2023 9:18:54 GMT -5
I think you proved that humidity/moister/dew point mixed with powder fouling will cause a bullet to load hard....some on here have stated that even in hot/humid weather that happens. Your temps (and theirs) were not below freezing....add below freezing temps to the mix and that could compound the problem. The wool wad might have eased the loading a bit with the bore in that condition. I want to try the dry patch...if you beat me to it let me know. Right now its warmer than I would like for the test (50's and 60's) and would need to cool off considerably before I try it. Good info ballistic! Ive been thinking about this patching . Especially while in the field on a hunt . It just might be a good idea to use a hoop patch holder rather than a jag so we dont loose our patch in the bore !!! Its either that or the patch wrapped around a brush it seems to me . Id hate to loose a patch down there while in the woods !!! I patch the brush . Ballistic i agree with Flatopusa on another excellent post . Flatopusa im also in agreement that this is proven . I also tenitiveally congratulate Ballistic on a new powder and load !!! Both very well done !!! We just got up here another one of those ice storms Today . This one hit 75 miles further north so in my area it was just rain . 5 days since the last storm hit and well over a 100,000 folks still dont have power just in my area !!!
Patching the brush is a good idea. When I was testing dry patching I lost a couple of patches in the bore. When I cut patches to an exact (round) size and knurled the side of my home made aluminum seating jag that seemed to solve the problem. It would also be nice to be able to incorporate a patch slot into the bullet seating jag....wouldnt have to hunt for or change jags to dry patch....I might give that a try too.
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Post by ballistic on Mar 1, 2023 21:16:25 GMT -5
Ok you might be sick and tired of my posts but this pic might interest you. Zoom in and you will see ice on the left (top) side of the barrel and brake. You will also see some ice on the bottom. This pic was taken 20 minutes after shooting a barrel that started at 24 degrees. 2 min after firing the powder chamber was at 34 degrees. At the time of this pic -the end of the barrel by the brake was at 29 degrees. I raised the gun up off the bench and sat it vertically in the gun caddy and that’s when I saw the residue coming out of the muzzle brake. Humidity was 74% and it was snowing and foggy. Outside air temp was 28-29 at the time of this pic. Utah is really dry and sits at 30% humidity most of the year so 74% is high humidity here. I have seen this many times before with blackpowder. So what was different that I have never seen before even with smokeless centerfire rifles ? Today this happenned with residue from Varget -smokeless powder. I can only speculate that the warmer core temps from the barrel were creating a dew point at the muzzle brake. Did the residue from the carbon help - I believe it did. The outside of the barrel was frozen- but the fins inside the muzzle brake are soaked with wet dirty powder residue. Please zoom in on pic and add to what you think has caused this. Pics are upside down The pic rail is the top of the barrel
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Post by ballistic on Mar 1, 2023 21:21:58 GMT -5
Ok you might be sick and tired of my posts but this pic might interest you. Zoom in and you will see ice on the left (top) side of the barrel and brake. You will also see some ice on the bottom. This pic was taken 20 minutes after shooting a barrel that started at 24 degrees. 2 min after firing the powder chamber was at 34 degrees. At the time of this pic -the end of the barrel by the brake was at 29 degrees. I raised the gun up off the bench and sat it vertically in the gun caddy and that’s when I saw the residue coming out of the muzzle brake. Humidity was 74% and it was snowing and foggy. Outside air temp was 28-29 at the time of this pic. Utah is really dry and sits at 30% humidity most of the year so 74% is high humidity here. I have seen this many times before with blackpowder. So what was different that I have never seen before even with smokeless centerfire rifles ? Today this happenned with residue from Varget -smokeless powder. I can only speculate that the warmer core temps from the barrel were creating a dew point at the muzzle brake. Did the residue from the carbon help - I believe it did. The outside of the barrel was frozen- but the fins inside the muzzle brake are soaked with wet dirty powder residue. Please zoom in on pic and add to what you think has caused this. Pics are upside down The pic rail is the top of the barrel View AttachmentView AttachmentLook at second pic. The 1st is blurry
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Post by Sideshow on Mar 2, 2023 15:32:15 GMT -5
If i had to take a stab at this id say the increased area on the thinner redirect fins heated Much More and with increased residual heat than uninterrupted sections did , i.e. they , uninterupted iced first . Just a barrel temp differential alone will cause a flow of the surface air warmed by the bore inside exchanged with whatever the ambiant conditions are with a flow of air Constanly until the temps are equal . Physical Laws . Upon the shot the super heated expanding gasses push the bullet out and expel themselves with enough force to also create a negative pressure within that barrel . Sucked back in goes the current temp , humidity , dew points , & vapor pressure refilling the pressure void (barrel) again with atmosphereic variables . Theres no way that this isnt happening to everybody if the Physical Laws of humidity , temps , dew point , and vapor pressure are met . It is what it is ........
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