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Post by flattopusa on Feb 4, 2023 8:53:45 GMT -5
I’m just thinking out loud here, don’t beat me down. I don’t use sabots, haven’t in years, but I did knurl to give the sabots something to bite. I don’t think I’ll encounter the condition you guys have due to Arkansas being warmer for the most part. I have seen hard to seat bullets here even on warm days when humidity is high, but it’s not cold enough to flash freeze even in winter like it is now. Now I shoot 100% smooth size bore riders, and try to get a good fit for a fouled barrel at my average hunting temperature of about 40 degrees. Could sizing a bit small, knurling, then sizing again be a possible way to avoid hammer downs in the situation you guys are experiencing? I don’t know how knurling affects accuracy on bore riders. I’m sure obturation would be affected, but a wad could help, again that may affect accuracy. Just a thought No beat down from me jeepeater! All thoughts are welcome.
Interesting you bring up humidity. That seems to be a common denominator. I have a friend here that does a lot of warm weather shooting with a BP muzzle loader and he said that even when the weather is warm, if the humidity is high, his bullet resistance when he loads is affected a bit.....as it is when the temps are cold....but he has never had to use a dying strain to load a bullet.
I believe bullet fit may be something to pursue. I shoot smooth sized paper patched cast bullets and through all my testing (high/low humidity....cold/warm temps) they always load easily and slip down the bore with one light hand on the loading ramrod (I shoot a 44 cal SML...groove diameter is .417 and my finished paper patched bullets are sized .417). It was just that one time that I mentioned in my opening post that this issue occurred and like you our "normal" hunting temps average 35 to 40 degrees (I live in St. Louis Mo and hunt Northern Mo.) and that is where I work up loads and sight in my rifle.
I have considered a dry patch between shots, a card wad on top of the powder charge or a wool wad on top of the charge to clear the bore a bit of powder fouling before loading a second shot. When I did my little test the dry patch seemed to clear the bore of frozen powder fouling and the bullet slipped down the bore as it normally would, so next time to the range I am going to try that and see how it works out. Knurling would be another option, but I dont think that would work too well with paper patched bullets! LOL!
I appreciate your input.
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 7, 2023 17:40:01 GMT -5
I’m just thinking out loud here, don’t beat me down. I don’t use sabots, haven’t in years, but I did knurl to give the sabots something to bite. I don’t think I’ll encounter the condition you guys have due to Arkansas being warmer for the most part. I have seen hard to seat bullets here even on warm days when humidity is high, but it’s not cold enough to flash freeze even in winter like it is now. Now I shoot 100% smooth size bore riders, and try to get a good fit for a fouled barrel at my average hunting temperature of about 40 degrees. Could sizing a bit small, knurling, then sizing again be a possible way to avoid hammer downs in the situation you guys are experiencing? I don’t know how knurling affects accuracy on bore riders. I’m sure obturation would be affected, but a wad could help, again that may affect accuracy. Just a thought Jeepeater im a pretty big fan of fine tuning obturation with knurling on cup and core bullets . Heck i even knurl my smokers 40 to 1 lead jobs to hold a really micro thin lube surface thats proven itself to enhance accuracy for me beyond what a grooved conical can achieve . I think you are correct in your thinking on this frosty ice formed . Ive Really been working on clean cold bore accuracy without Any fouling present . I also knurl purposefully for bore dimmensional fit due to temp changes to give myself flexibility due to contraction/expansion . I like alot what knurl is capable of offering . Most dont want that level of fooling with things . I suppose i usually limit my distances on shots too and dont mind as much the slight bc loss matters as well . Its a good trade to me . I could see this helping most overcome the lighter frost thing i believe . But its not a good idea for Ballistic shooting much further and needing solid max BCs . Flatopusa being patched not at all . My biggest worry is the sitting out and having that water form actual puddles of ice on the bottom length of the barrel as the rifle lays upon my lap just sitting there hunting !!! That obstruction is DANGEROUS !!! That is SCAREY !!!!!!! |
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Post by jeepeater on Feb 7, 2023 18:31:19 GMT -5
I’m just thinking out loud here, don’t beat me down. I don’t use sabots, haven’t in years, but I did knurl to give the sabots something to bite. I don’t think I’ll encounter the condition you guys have due to Arkansas being warmer for the most part. I have seen hard to seat bullets here even on warm days when humidity is high, but it’s not cold enough to flash freeze even in winter like it is now. Now I shoot 100% smooth size bore riders, and try to get a good fit for a fouled barrel at my average hunting temperature of about 40 degrees. Could sizing a bit small, knurling, then sizing again be a possible way to avoid hammer downs in the situation you guys are experiencing? I don’t know how knurling affects accuracy on bore riders. I’m sure obturation would be affected, but a wad could help, again that may affect accuracy. Just a thought Jeepeater im a pretty big fan of fine tuning obturation with knurling on cup and core bullets . Heck i even knurl my smokers 40 to 1 lead jobs to hold a really micro thin lube surface thats proven itself to enhance accuracy for me beyond what a grooved conical can achieve . I think you are correct in your thinking on this frosty ice formed . Ive Really been working on clean cold bore accuracy without Any fouling present . I also knurl purposefully for bore dimmensional fit due to temp changes to give myself flexibility due to contraction/expansion . I like alot what knurl is capable of offering . Most dont want that level of fooling with things . I suppose i usually limit my distances on shots too and dont mind as much the slight bc loss matters as well . Its a good trade to me . I could see this helping most overcome the lighter frost thing i believe . But its not a good idea for Ballistic shooting much further and needing solid max BCs . Flatopusa being patched not at all . My biggest worry is the sitting out and having that water form actual puddles of ice on the bottom length of the barrel as the rifle lays upon my lap just sitting there hunting !!! That obstruction is DANGEROUS !!! That is SCAREY !!!!!!! Definitely don’t want ice puddles, that would be catastrophic. How much do you think knurling affects BC? I actually have no idea, but now I’m curious. |
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 7, 2023 19:29:41 GMT -5
Well im not entirely positive lol . I was Told it will drop bc anywhere from .01 to approximately .02 possibly more depending on how aggressive knurled you are and how slippery the bullet was to start with .
So a .400 bc will drop to .390 , or .380 , or more on those other factors . Not real concrete is it ?? Ive never checked bc and dont know how either ?? I have chosen to avoid all that heavy duty thinking to be blunt .
Ive shot deer to 600 or so yds cf but prefer not to . Closer is better to me . 400yds is a easier shot with more energy behind it and nearly instantainious on target delivering the goods in abundace . I usually am all good with that scenario Of smack with a decent rest to use afield . I want them taken clean and quick for their benefit . Deer arent groundhogs to me and i have much more respect for them . I feel thats a good thing . But fast and flat is still best for the gun even shorter range per bullet construction .
This , to me , is the most effective use of "Magnum Force"
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Post by jeepeater on Feb 7, 2023 20:06:40 GMT -5
Well im not entirely positive lol . I was Told it will drop bc anywhere from .01 to approximately .02 possibly more depending on how aggressive knurled you are and how slippery the bullet was to start with . So a .400 bc will drop to .390 , or .380 , or more on those other factors . Not real concrete is it ?? Ive never checked bc and dont know how either ?? I have chosen to avoid all that heavy duty thinking to be blunt . Ive shot deer to 600 or so yds cf but prefer not to . Closer is better to me . 400yds is an easier shot with more energy behind it and nearly instantainious on target delivering the goods in abundace . I usually am all good with that scenario Of smack with a decent rest to use afield . I want them taken clean and quick for their benefit . Deer arent groundhogs to me and i have much more respect for them . I feel thats a good thing . But fast and flat is still best for the gun even shorter range . I have a Labradar that I use, and I’ve generated BC’s with it. I’ve heard the ballistic guru Litz doesn’t trust BC’s generated with the Labradar. It’s been pretty accurate for me so far, at least with the 45 SML and several larger centerfire loadings like the 300 RUM. I’ve taken whitetail a little past 1100 yards with centerfire, but it was under near perfect conditions, and literally off the bench I do my load development and drop data gathering from. It might be interesting to test and see how much difference knurl vs smooth changes BC. Then again, that’s some expensive curiosity. |
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 7, 2023 20:25:43 GMT -5
Personally i dont trust alot of Brian Litz thoughts to be honest . What can i say......
But i do know Ballistic needs all the BC he can get . I guess who can blame you long range boys for that ?? The cold bore shot with really stabilized velocity is paramount too . That 1st shot Must be Entirely Predictable right along with all the others . Dam tough to do with a muzzy .
We should probably get more centralized on topic my friend .
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Post by ballistic on Feb 7, 2023 21:26:06 GMT -5
How does bullet fit to bore change with temps?
I’m convinced that bullets need to be sized bigger as temps drop. The opposite happens as a barrel gets hot -bullets need to be sized smaller. As temps rise bullets get harder to push down a barrel. When temps really drop - bullets can almost fall down the barrel.
When my issue happened - the rounds should have been easier going down the tube on the next shots. I had sized bullets for the colder temps for an easy to medium push to go down the barrel. I believe humidity and fouling together likely caused an issue that wasn’t there before. After checking my notes more closely - it was hard going after 3” down the tube and then hammer with a rock time.
I changed powders and haven’t had the issue of hard loading again. At near zero temps I did experience easier loading and a drop of 60 fps and also saw frost form on the barrel. Still not entirely sure if the drop in speed was from moisture in the bore or easier loading ?
Again my last testing wasn’t with the same powder I had my original issue with. I believe there’s several things working together or against to make the issue happen ?
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Post by jeepeater on Feb 7, 2023 23:38:50 GMT -5
How does bullet fit to bore change with temps? I’m convinced that bullets need to be sized bigger as temps drop. The opposite happens as a barrel gets hot -bullets need to be sized smaller. As temps rise bullets get harder to push down a barrel. When temps really drop - bullets can almost fall down the barrel. When my issue happened - the rounds should have been easier going down the tube on the next shots. I had sized bullets for the colder temps for an easy to medium push to go down the barrel. I believe humidity and fouling together likely caused an issue that wasn’t there before. After checking my notes more closely - it was hard going after 3” down the tube and then hammer with a rock time. I changed powders and haven’t had the issue of hard loading again. At near zero temps I did experience easier loading and a drop of 60 fps and also saw frost form on the barrel. Still not entirely sure if the drop in speed was from moisture in the bore or easier loading ? Again my last testing wasn’t with the same powder I had my original issue with. I believe there’s several things working together or against to make the issue happen ? I think you experienced the “perfect storm” of conditions. The hardest part of this is the fact that it takes very little to go from hard loading to hammer down. My experiences with harder to load on warm/humid days, I can see where adding extreme cold would amplify that situation. I just don’t know what can be done to prevent it. A brush down the bore is the ticket between range sessions for me during warm weather, or even during extended rests during sessions , but not nearly as practical in the field. I’m not even sure just a brush would have remedied your hammer down situation. |
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Post by buckeye68 on Feb 8, 2023 7:48:15 GMT -5
How does bullet fit to bore change with temps? I’m convinced that bullets need to be sized bigger as temps drop. The opposite happens as a barrel gets hot -bullets need to be sized smaller. As temps rise bullets get harder to push down a barrel. When temps really drop - bullets can almost fall down the barrel. When my issue happened - the rounds should have been easier going down the tube on the next shots. I had sized bullets for the colder temps for an easy to medium push to go down the barrel. I believe humidity and fouling together likely caused an issue that wasn’t there before. After checking my notes more closely - it was hard going after 3” down the tube and then hammer with a rock time. I changed powders and haven’t had the issue of hard loading again. At near zero temps I did experience easier loading and a drop of 60 fps and also saw frost form on the barrel. Still not entirely sure if the drop in speed was from moisture in the bore or easier loading ? Again my last testing wasn’t with the same powder I had my original issue with. I believe there’s several things working together or against to make the issue happen ? I think you experienced the “perfect storm” of conditions. The hardest part of this is the fact that it takes very little to go from hard loading to hammer down. My experiences with harder to load on warm/humid days, I can see where adding extreme cold would amplify that situation. I just don’t know what can be done to prevent it. A brush down the bore is the ticket between range sessions for me during warm weather, or even during extended rests during sessions , but not nearly as practical in the field. I’m not even sure just a brush would have remedied your hammer down situation. A key factor that has been left out of this perfect storm is the time that was between when the shot was taken and when the gun was reloaded. If you go back and read Ballistic original post in the 40 cal section. When getting ready for hunting everyone goes to the range and test fire their gun at the range and shoots till the are happy with the gun performance and what they deem as good. But, how many people practice reloading in field like conditions showing up to the range with a clean or dirty barrel and takes a cold bore shot and follow up with a second? How many people go to the range shoots one time and wait 20 minutes before they load the second round? Will it reload with ease or will you need a rock to load it? There is only one way to find out but something tells me that you will find out whether its at the shooting range or in the field while hunting. I personally can load my hunting gun in any condition because I have tested it over and over again in any condition with the weather or the reloading clock. |
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Post by dennis on Feb 8, 2023 8:55:54 GMT -5
I agree and I never wait to reload, be it in the woods or at the bench. Also have noticed some slower powders have a tendency to crust over the fouling more than others. I also think the length of the powder column is a factor. JMO
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Post by dennis on Feb 8, 2023 9:00:30 GMT -5
Also when hunting I don't sit with my rifle on my lap or in my hands as body heat transfers and could be problematic.
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Post by sew on Feb 8, 2023 11:14:22 GMT -5
Knurled bullet. If the bullet could be recovered intact after firing, would the obturation totally remove all traces of knurling? I think it would.
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Post by jeepeater on Feb 8, 2023 13:59:22 GMT -5
Knurled bullet. If the bullet could be recovered intact after firing, would the obturation totally remove all traces of knurling? I think it would. I would think obturation would mitigate decreased BC caused by knurling in a bore rider. |
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Post by ballistic on Feb 8, 2023 20:19:46 GMT -5
I agree with what Dennis and Buckeye have said on length of time to reload. When my issue happened -time after the shot to reload was (can’t tell you for sure really..) delayed because I decided to watch my video from my spotting scope a few times to see where the round had missed. Time flies when you’re having fun right ? I then reloaded and that time may have been a large factor. At the bench or recreational shooting -if you wait 20 minutes -you’re in trouble and sometimes I’ve had hard loading after 8-10 minutes. But normally 5 minutes doesn’t seem to hurt -normally.
After my issue - I reload immediately and then watch the footage. Even with a DRT kill - reload. I haven’t had the issue again with fast reloading. Flattopusa had his issue and did reload immediately so I still think there’s an element of humidity/dew/frost happening. If my second shot is slowed from those issues -it’s much better to have the gun go bang -than to have a ramrod stuck to a bullet.
Thanks for the reminder on the time element guys.
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 8, 2023 23:15:01 GMT -5
Also when hunting I don't sit with my rifle on my lap or in my hands as body heat transfers and could be problematic. Dennis with the Canadian White River bibs and parka i use thats a non-issue for me . White River Ontario for years was the coldest spot ever recorded @ -72* F and regularly is -55*F or lower all winter . I knew what i was buying . It can snow and accumulate all over me and not melt . The flakes of snow wont even loose their intricate fine details . Its 30+yrs old and nothing ive ever seen compares . Snowmobile mittens with a palm flap for fingers is essential too ive found out over years of extended sits . They dont give off heat either and wind wont penetrate . Ive got some Really hard-core Northern hunting gear no doubt !!! I suspect the sun more than anything causeing my biggest concerns of ice with weather factors mixed in . Thats step #1 of my next test . |
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Post by hillbill on Feb 9, 2023 7:19:40 GMT -5
Knurled bullet. If the bullet could be recovered intact after firing, would the obturation totally remove all traces of knurling? I think it would. I do know for a fact that wait times matter when reloading, regardless of the powder used, some however are much more pronounced than others. I've tested it many times under different weather conditions and a barrel will chalk up in less than 10 minutes, many times in 5. I have recovered bullets that were knurled, you could see the imprint faintly but they were pretty smooth, I doubt it would affect the BC much if any. As far as ice forming in the barrel? I don't doubt that frost can form inside given the right conditions but overall with a covered muzzle water is not going to puddle and freeze inside unless we let it rain down the bore. Humidity definitely affects the way powder residue feels when pushing a bullet down, we have seen this many times in the past and just something one must figure into the equation when load testing. One must test a load in every condition possible before settling on it and calling it proven, in most cases this takes a full year of testing, most of us don't do that, sometimes it bites us. In the past I've shot loads that I thought were great in that weather condition only to find later under different conditions it was a different animal. |
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Post by sew on Feb 11, 2023 10:41:17 GMT -5
“I have recovered bullets that were knurled, you could see the imprint faintly but they were pretty smooth, I doubt it would affect the BC much if any.” Hillbill.
Golf balls reportedly have the dimples to increase their trajectory, ie, BC. There is a Grumman aircraft club primarily composed of the AA1 & 5 series of 2 &4 seat , single engine airplanes. They have a yearly 3-4 day convention with a number of flying contests , flour bombing, accuracy landings, etc. One of these is a race, flying a triangular route of about 150 miles total. The plane that often wins was in a hail storm, leaving the entire surface of the thin aluminum plane looking like a golf ball. Though the owner was paid a large amount by his ins company to somehow repair the plane, he elected to leave it as is. His racing speeds increased: his dimpled plane was actually noticeably faster than before.
There may be a patentable bullet principle here if the dimples could survive the obturation process. Maybe even the knurling marks(voids) could increase BC. Obviously hunting season is over here. 😊
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 11, 2023 17:45:33 GMT -5
“I have recovered bullets that were knurled, you could see the imprint faintly but they were pretty smooth, I doubt it would affect the BC much if yupany.” Hillbill. Golf balls reportedly have the dimples to increase their trajectory, ie, BC. There is a Grumman aircraft club primarily composed of the AA1 & 5 series of 2 &4 seat , single engine airplanes. They have a yearly 3-4 day convention with a number of flying contests , flour bombing, accuracy landings, etc. One of these is a race, flying a triangular route of about 150 miles total. The plane that often wins was in a hail storm, leaving the entire surface of the thin aluminum plane looking like a golf ball. Though the owner was paid a large amount by his ins company to somehow repair the plane, he elected to leave it as is. His racing speeds increased: his dimpled plane was actually noticeably faster than before. There may be a patentable bullet principle here if the dimples could survive the obturation process. Maybe even the knurling marks(voids) could increase BC. Obviously hunting season is over here. 😊 Good analogy Sew . The same idea was applied to the USAs competitive sailing vessel with a copy of "shark skin like" covering and the boat ran away and hid from competitors . Knurl is valuable and it was good to discuss it . I didnt really believe them either lol !!! It was good to think about wasnt it ?? As for this weather thing ..... www.baldhiker.com/the-differences-between-frost-and-ice-and-how-it-forms/Frost IS ice !!! Mixed with fouling it amounts to solid ice practically , absorbing moisture throughout . Frozen mortar . Just as barrel friendly too . But in this layman termed link some reading between the lines are also required to Try to understand this complex issue honestly . First , the fact IS this happens . I hope everybody is now on board with this ?? . The idea of water forming and running down to the lowest point in the bore isnt far fetched at all . A land is only .004 thou tall ?? I shoot out of a Completely Clean bore , eat off it clean . No fouling is there to absorb anything . Next i also like sabots in changeable humid/wet weather . My brake comes off for sabots . Truthfully my finger cots are tight on the brake but not on the barrel alone . And when its a nice day who uses them honestly ?? I also exclusively if its scoped use "Safari Sling" by Reddi to where my rifles hang completely horizontal scope faceing up on my side . Even in a downpour Nothing is getting down that barrel . In that simplistic link it also mentions the sun and how it melts the frost . I say radiant energy on the barrel affects this ice/frost issue up inside a barrel as well . In the summer a iced glass of tea Sweats in the heat gathering humidity . It really shouldnt take much imagination to see how the barrel could warm during daylight hours enough to cause sweat then freeze on the inside due to setting sun and dropping temps -- the Reverse . Put your bare belly up against that car setting in the sun in summer !!! Even in winter its much warmer than the air . A barrel is no different . Regardless of how in the complicated science worlds explanation of HOW these things may occur the Fact IS They Do . There is no contrary argument it "cant" when the Evidence is in hand as it Has taken place . Without being a weatherman we are trying to understand a Very Complicated thing that occurs in nature . What we are Trying to do is discover some science that will help us 1) understand whats before our eyes , 2) what on earth Can we do to prevent seeing this with our eyes !!! If i was to have posted from another site online that frost Can Form at 33 or 34* ambiant temp Farinheiht EVERYBODY wouldve freaked out or said BS !!! Yes this stuff can be just that complicated or MORE . Ive also had antique pulling tractors with aluminum carb venturis Freeze Shut in 95 deg heat . The fix was a venturi made out of derlin , a nylon - moly blend . The rpms , combined with its small size venturi , velocity of air , and resulting pressure drop froze the humid summer air on the carb venturi completely closed . The tractor would stall out . Mid Febuary already and i dont know how much time left i will have to experiment . This winter has been non typical as they come . I got another test ready but who knows how much longer this weather may cooperate ......steel tubeing hung leveled in the sun and shade . Some with stuff applied inside , some with nothing . We gonna see ...... |
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Post by sew on Feb 11, 2023 23:06:46 GMT -5
Airplane carburetors can ice up in 80-90 degree temps.
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Post by ballistic on Feb 12, 2023 10:30:22 GMT -5
After seeing frost/Ice appear on my barrel (after firing) a few weeks ago (when the outside temp was 0-3 F -and the barrel was also at the temp “pre fired”) I’ve done alot of research on thermal energy where heat can produce cold. The science is there to explain how it happens but very lengthy to explain. A post from Accurateshooter can help simplify the answer.
“In Alaska winter -while there I would not bring (my rifle) inside in the wintertime due to metal being below freezing, when it thaws it attracts moisture”.
Our muzzleloaders are really super/ultramagnums. A whole lot of energy transfer is taking place when they are fired. The powder and friction produce heat -how much is not entirely known. What is known is the core of the barrel had an explosion of gunpowder that was around 800 F. Although it only took 3 milliseconds for the round to exit the heat was still there. We can feel this heat in warmer temps easily. In cold it’s not so easy.
It takes time for that internal heat to surface to where it’s measured on the barrel.
When 1/2 of my barrel had frost -it was the warmer 1/2 with 15 degree surface temps being noted. I believe there was more heat making its way to the surface (after I had measured the temp at 15F) enough to thaw part of the barrel. That thawing + dew point likely caused the frost/ice to form.
Though not seen - it stands to reason that the inside core of a barrel could thaw sooner and collect moisture. Remember -this is with conditions where the barrel is below freezing -not pulled out of a warm pickup and then shot.
I believe there’s certainly a time element for the condensation to form. Loading quickly after firing has not produced the hammer loading I experienced. There’s still the element of moisture being pulled into the bore. A dry patch between loading or possibly a dry patch 5-10 min after loading could mitigate the moisture issue?
Lots of great ideas and tests on this issue have been shared -thanks everyone. I’m going to test again in a week when temps are in the teens. My next test will be with a bullet that is sized slightly larger as the previous temps drop in speed could have been due to significantly easier loading force. I’m also taking the FLIR and will be taking pics of the hot/warm/cold spots at the surface of the barrel. The FLIR is not supposed to be operated below freezing so I’ll wrap it with a hand warmer for the test. I’ll share my results. And looking forward to more testing by all. I certainly don’t have all the answers - still searching.
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