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Post by ballistic on Feb 1, 2023 5:26:53 GMT -5
I thought I would jump in this post with a little cold weather test myself. So, at 5am this morning the alarm went off and I packed the car and headed to the range. My gun was a toasty 72 degrees when I put it in the gun case. By the time I stop for a breakfast sandwich and unloaded the car the temp was a warm 12 degrees outside with a wind chill of -2. Wind was out of the north at 12 mph. Humidity was at 70%. My gun set outside for at least one hour on the bench in the rest before I could fire off the first shot at 7:30am. The gun’s temp was the same on the inside and outside. First shot was on a clean barrel, bang. The second shot loaded just like the first with an easy 2 finger push and it went bang. I waited 3 minutes before I loaded the next shot, it went bang also. So, I thought since I shoot DI, I would blow in the barrel through the breach plug. The action had frost on it and I let it set for anther 4 minutes before I loaded it again. Yep, you guessed it. Bang again. I would shoot and remove the module and blow inside the action through the DI plug and let the gun set for another 3 minutes before I reloaded. There was no difference in load pressure from the first shot till I loaded the 28th shot. My finger was so cold that I could not feel the trigger. It made for a fun day of shooting. By the time I was done the temp was up to 14 degrees with a wind chill of 4 degrees. This test was done with no pretreatment on the barrel or bullets of any kind just like I would deer hunt. Buckeye I’m also using direct ignition and my gun always goes bang as well. I like that you blew down the tube to add moisture. Did you verify speeds when you were testing ? And were you using a fast powder like 4198 ? Thanks |
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Post by buckeye68 on Feb 1, 2023 6:53:53 GMT -5
Ballistic-
I’m using a slower powder than you are. I’m running the Pittman’s 325.
I shot the same load on 1/21 when temp was 33 degrees with humidity at 73%. I haven’t ran all the number yet but last two shots were 3075 FPS (1/21) and 3069 FPS (1/31).
I’ll be group testing this load in two weeks at the Polar Bear shoot in KY.
I haven’t shot a lot of 4198 but I have shot a lot of 4227 in my break action on the bench and in a hunting scenario and I have not had any issues with hard loading or failure to firer.
When I was shooting H4895 in my 40 cal it was clean from shot to shot and I never worried if I was going to be able to reload it.
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 1, 2023 6:54:16 GMT -5
I didnt verify speeds but used 4198 ballistic and i had frost and moisture being warmer . ASG moduals too and it went bang so did #11s . Everytime . I think he missed the point why 4 of us are looking into this ......
Also care to share the secret of how to use 4895 clean in a 40 as Hillbill , sew , or nobody else seems to be able ?? HIS or DI nobody else seems to know the secret formula.....Please do share it .
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Post by buckeye68 on Feb 1, 2023 7:11:04 GMT -5
I didnt verify speeds but used 4198 ballistic and i had frost and moisture being warmer . ASG moduals too and it went bang so did #11s . Everytime . I think he missed the point why 4 of us are looking into this ...... And NO I haven’t missed the point at all. I’ve shot in humidity levels from 38% to 97%. I’ve shot in the rain and snow with temps from -2 up to 99 degrees. I’ve shot in states from Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky and down to Tennessee with zero issues. I’ve hunted all day and carried my gun back inside to my hotel room and back to the field for 5 days and the gun still went bang on the 6th day with dropping multiple deer with zero loading issues. So…….. did I miss the point? |
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 1, 2023 7:17:02 GMT -5
When 4 of us are working on a soulution Together Constructively id say YES you have .
Lets hear about that 4895 too .
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Post by buckeye68 on Feb 1, 2023 7:35:34 GMT -5
When 4 of us are working on a soulution Together Constructively id say YES you have . Lets hear about that 4895 too . Sorry, that my data isn’t matching your science. Is there something else I can try to help? All jokes aside, I will be more than glad to try if you can tell me what to try to reproduce the issue you are talking about. I shot yesterday in freezing cold temps not to prove a point but to try to help. Since we live so close maybe we can get together maybe we can meet and have a face to face and trade information. I’ll bring Loud Mouth and Monroe and let you see for your self, even let you shoot some groups if your willing. |
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 1, 2023 8:13:27 GMT -5
When 4 of us are working on a soulution Together Constructively id say YES you have . Lets hear about that 4895 too . Sorry, that my data isn’t matching your science. Is there something else I can try to help? All jokes aside, I will be more than glad to try if you can tell me what to try to reproduce the issue you are talking about. I shot yesterday in freezing cold temps not to prove a point but to try to help. Since we live so close maybe we can get together maybe we can meet and have a face to face and trade information. I’ll bring Loud Mouth and Monroe and let you see for your self, even let you shoot some groups if your willing. As eager as you are i dont count 3 hrs apart as all that close buckeye68 . We Wish we could duplicate natures effects at will but still are trying in a co-operative spirit to help each other . Your drift was caught and it kinda didnt fit that . Sorry i will have to pass . All you really mentioned is it went bang ?? No other details were given or noted . Unless id suppose Monroe is able to defy physics you shouldve noted frost at those temps . Also last i checked hunting rarely ever do we shoot so quickly together in time span . If we knew EXACTLY what was causeing All 4 of Our Issues it would be so much easier to replicate at will . Unfortuately out hunting it just sorta happens at His Will . Tough to plan for that but we the only ones that have seemed to have this problem are trying . I doubt youd help much .... This clean 4895 thing im sure Everybody would love to know !!! I think Your time would be of Much Greater Benefit Explaining That . Thanks in Advance...... Maybe a New Thread ?? |
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Post by buckeye68 on Feb 1, 2023 8:26:02 GMT -5
Sorry, that my data isn’t matching your science. Is there something else I can try to help? All jokes aside, I will be more than glad to try if you can tell me what to try to reproduce the issue you are talking about. I shot yesterday in freezing cold temps not to prove a point but to try to help. Since we live so close maybe we can get together maybe we can meet and have a face to face and trade information. I’ll bring Loud Mouth and Monroe and let you see for your self, even let you shoot some groups if your willing. As eager as you are i dont count 3 hrs apart as all that close buckeye68 . We Wish we could duplicate natures effects at will but still are trying in a co-operative spirit to help each other . Your drift was caught and it kinda didnt fit that . Sorry i will have to pass . All you really mentioned is it went bang ?? No other details were given or noted . Unless id suppose Monroe is able to defy physics you shouldve noted frost at those temps . Also last i checked hunting rarely ever do we shoot so quickly together in time span . If we knew EXACTLY what was causeing All 4 of Our Issues it would be so much easier to replicate at will . Unfortuately out hunting it just sorta happens at His Will . Tough to plan for that but we the only ones that have seemed to have this problem are trying . I doubt youd help much .... This clean 4895 thing im sure Everybody would love to know !!! I think Your time would be of Much Greater Benefit Explaining That . Thanks in Advance...... Wow, not even willing to meet half way? I’m really trying here. |
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 1, 2023 8:31:15 GMT -5
As eager as you are i dont count 3 hrs apart as all that close buckeye68 . We Wish we could duplicate natures effects at will but still are trying in a co-operative spirit to help each other . Your drift was caught and it kinda didnt fit that . Sorry i will have to pass . All you really mentioned is it went bang ?? No other details were given or noted . Unless id suppose Monroe is able to defy physics you shouldve noted frost at those temps . Also last i checked hunting rarely ever do we shoot so quickly together in time span . If we knew EXACTLY what was causeing All 4 of Our Issues it would be so much easier to replicate at will . Unfortuately out hunting it just sorta happens at His Will . Tough to plan for that but we the only ones that have seemed to have this problem are trying . I doubt youd help much .... This clean 4895 thing im sure Everybody would love to know !!! I think Your time would be of Much Greater Benefit Explaining That . Thanks in Advance...... Wow, not even will to meet half way? I’m really trying here. Sorry . Your efforts were duly noted already . That New Thread would be nice however . Please no more "crickets" for it......or are you cramped a bit right now ?? |
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Post by ballistic on Feb 1, 2023 8:55:50 GMT -5
Ballistic- I’m using a slower powder than you are. I’m running the Pittman’s 325. I shot the same load on 1/21 when temp was 33 degrees with humidity at 73%. I haven’t ran all the number yet but last two shots were 3075 FPS (1/21) and 3069 FPS (1/31). I’ll be group testing this load in two weeks at the Polar Bear shoot in KY. I haven’t shot a lot of 4198 but I have shot a lot of 4227 in my break action on the bench and in a hunting scenario and I have not had any issues with hard loading or failure to firer. When I was shooting H4895 in my 40 cal it was clean from shot to shot and I never worried if I was going to be able to reload it. Thanks for the response. While testing - did you encounter any frost on the exterior of the barrel ? I’m only asking because I’ve seen it several times - just haven’t taken pics of it. It also doesn’t stick around on the barrel very long. Utahs humidity is almost always at 30% -unless it’s storming - so I would think the issue would be greater in your woods ? My centerfire rifles -seen it (frost) many times over the years but didn’t really pay any attention to it Have had big spikes in speeds going faster in extreme cold with many centerfire rifles. My centerfire rifle shot 45 fps faster yesterday. That rifle sat out for 2 hours but only part of the barrel went down to zero. The action was still at 15 degrees. I set the muzzy outside overnight -its barrel and action was at -1. That’s the reason I’m using a lazer and stick on temp garages. Trying to get real numbers. What I didn’t say yesterday was that shot number 2 raised the barrels temp another 10 degrees and then after shot number 3 the barrel raised another 8 degrees. Both raised temps that high by the action and first 6” of the barrel.- the mid and end of barrel raised a few degrees. Had I kept shooting - those temps wound have increased- but at 0-3 degrees outside temps - likely not enough to get the barrel warm to the touch.. I did not have any issues getting the rounds down the barrel (3) yesterday. In fact - they went easier than normal - another possibility of slower speeds ? I’m just trying to replicate the issue I had last year when I stuck my ramrod to my bullet after beating it down the barrel. Flatopusa also had the issue. Sideshow has said the same. I’m glad that you are not having any of these issues. Side note : I made a 3/8” (100 yards) group with the 3 -even with the 60 fps drop in speed - Woudnt have know. It without the labradarr. Thanks for your posts |
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Post by buckeye68 on Feb 1, 2023 8:58:49 GMT -5
Wow, not even will to meet half way? I’m really trying here. Sorry . Your efforts were duly noted already . That New Thread would be nice however . Please no more "crickets" for it......or are you cramped a bit right now ??  |
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Post by buckeye68 on Feb 1, 2023 9:07:09 GMT -5
Ballistic- I’m using a slower powder than you are. I’m running the Pittman’s 325. I shot the same load on 1/21 when temp was 33 degrees with humidity at 73%. I haven’t ran all the number yet but last two shots were 3075 FPS (1/21) and 3069 FPS (1/31). I’ll be group testing this load in two weeks at the Polar Bear shoot in KY. I haven’t shot a lot of 4198 but I have shot a lot of 4227 in my break action on the bench and in a hunting scenario and I have not had any issues with hard loading or failure to firer. When I was shooting H4895 in my 40 cal it was clean from shot to shot and I never worried if I was going to be able to reload it. Thanks for the response. While testing - did you encounter any frost on the exterior of the barrel ? I’m only asking because I’ve seen it several times - just haven’t taken pics of it. It also doesn’t stick around on the barrel very long. Utahs humidity is almost always at 30% -unless it’s storming - so I would think the issue would be greater in your woods ? My centerfire rifles -seen it (frost) many times over the years but didn’t really pay any attention to it Have had big spikes in speeds going faster in extreme cold with many centerfire rifles. My centerfire rifle shot 45 fps faster yesterday. That rifle sat out for 2 hours but only part of the barrel went down to zero. The action was still at 15 degrees. I set the muzzy outside overnight -its barrel and action was at -1. That’s the reason I’m using a lazer and stick on temp garages. Trying to get real numbers. What I didn’t say yesterday was that shot number 2 raised the barrels temp another 10 degrees and then after shot number 3 the barrel raised another 8 degrees. Both raised temps that high by the action and first 6” of the barrel.- the mid and end of barrel raised a few degrees. Had I kept shooting - those temps wound have increased- but at 0-3 degrees outside temps - likely not enough to get the barrel warm to the touch.. I did not have any issues getting the rounds down the barrel (3) yesterday. In fact - they went easier than normal - another possibility of slower speeds ? I’m just trying to replicate the issue I had last year when I stuck my ramrod to my bullet after beating it down the barrel. Flatopusa also had the issue. Sideshow has said the same. I’m glad that you are not having any of these issues. Side note : I made a 3/8” (100 yards) group with the 3 -even with the 60 fps drop in speed - Woudnt have know. It without the labradarr. Thanks for your posts Every time I would blow on it, the action and barrel would frost over. Even the inside of the action would have frost on it. If you go back and watch any KY Challenge I’ve shot in,I blow inside my action before I reinstall a new module, so this is not something I just started doing. |
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 1, 2023 9:27:19 GMT -5
The issue we are having is beyond the breech . It isnt a simple fix when this happems either . Miked as well from the northeast regularly faces this whenever it decides to pop up .
Theres no BS involved on our part . This IS happening .
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Post by hillbill on Feb 1, 2023 15:02:38 GMT -5
I didnt verify speeds but used 4198 ballistic and i had frost and moisture being warmer . ASG moduals too and it went bang so did #11s . Everytime . I think he missed the point why 4 of us are looking into this ...... Also care to share the secret of how to use 4895 clean in a 40 as Hillbill , sew , or nobody else seems to be able ?? HIS or DI nobody else seems to know the secret formula.....Please do share it . I used 4895 pretty extensively in my .40, for the most part it worked great with 275s and shot clean but I had fouling issues when expecting it to shoot multiple shot strings as I would in a match so before hunting season I abandoned it in favor of what I knew would work well. Are you shooting a .40? I know ballistic is .40s are a completely different animal altogether so to expect similarities is somewhat speculative. I get it, weather conditions can make these guns do some strange things. This much I have learned about smokeless muzzleloaders, each one is a different bird and while you are looking for an answer in general terms it’s not a one size fits all. ballistic and I have had the .40 talk many times and we both agree they can be a great tool BUT they are hard to figure. Is the problem he has seen caused by the same issue flattop experienced? Maybe so? As far as the problem Flattop had in a .45? I know it exists and I’ve seen it before during hot humid conditions but never in cold. I don’t doubt him at all but it’s something that has to be replicated first with his caliber and load to be diagnosed. Mark is simply trying to do that, not prove the problem doesn’t exist. |
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 1, 2023 21:13:02 GMT -5
My 40 went together , was shot for awhile , then has been taken back apart to be put on a diet and modified Hillbill . So the answer is Yes , i got a 40 .
What we are experianceing has been talked about extensively .
In order to help id imagine all of the previous pages should be covered first ?? Sending a bullet every 3 minutes is pretty well useless for what is happening ?? If read and comprehended that is evident by whats already been discussed . The last shot of the days velocity is truly no help at all if trying to help .
Miked and i are also faceing other challenges of ice formation . This has occured for years and is not strictly a SML issue . This is also a safety issue as this ice formed within these barrels are definately an obstruction without ever firing a shot beforehand . Even just the sun shineing upon the barrel hunting has resulted in these ice obstructions , some quite large . Not Cool at all .
The 4 of us have been working together on this in very much a Constructive Spirit . Other inputs of the same ilk have been welcomed as well . Awhile back in this thread Mark questioned the reasoning behind a warm bullet being used as there is reason for that reloading . He stated never has he had this issue . That was shared on bullet temp . Not much hasnt been shared . Commendable as it may seem to go shoot to try to help us that procedure wasnt . He missed why or how we are proceding with this to attempt to duplicate field results .
That error is self evident if actual concern to help is employed . It obviously wasnt .
What followed wasnt about our issue either but a horse of completely different color .
In particular that statement of 4895 caught my eye as questionable teamed with the DI statement , and the 325s .
Ive paid very close attention to what he has numerous times posted for a combination . 250 AM , and HIS , useing 74gr of 4895 with no issues for clean burning @ 2935 to 619 yds . Yes they are all individuals these rifles . Pretty strange to me has been he has been the only one to accomplish that at least stated here till now . I didnt call BS as ive read him do on posts here . I simply declined his offers to meet . But if he would care to post about 4895 id be all ears as it didnt produce anything clean for me just as ive read claimed by others as well . I truly do think that info would help more people than this freezeing issue we got going on here . The task here is replication of all factors present as best we can toward solution if possible .
Its honest work .
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Post by hillbill on Feb 1, 2023 22:30:55 GMT -5
So what loads and bullet weights did you fire in your .40?
We are talking smokeless here right?
I've never seen you post about such?
Seems to me you need to put that .40 back together and do some testing yourself, as for what Mark says, I will take it to the bank and receive a statement at the end of the month, know him, have shot with him several times, shared range duties together etc.
Seems to me you are questioning his intent?
More testing on your part with facts presented would be a big help instead of these long elaborate posts you do trying to make our members think you are in the know.
Sorry guys, It had to be said, once again.
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Post by Sideshow on Feb 2, 2023 6:14:16 GMT -5
So what loads and bullet weights did you fire in your .40? We are talking smokeless here right? I've never seen you post about such? Seems to me you need to put that .40 back together and do some testing yourself, as for what Mark says, I will take it to the bank and receive a statement at the end of the month, know him, have shot with him several times, shared range duties together etc. Seems to me you are questioning his intent? More testing on your part with facts presented would be a big help instead of these long elaborate posts you do trying to make our members think you are in the know. Sorry guys, It had to be said, once again. I wasnt around for a year of my own choice Bill . Alot took place you know nothing of . You question me but i must not question anything or anybody ?? Now you are questioning the authenticity of 3 others as well that have stated this issue too ?? And the motivation for their participation on a issue that nobody else has had No Experiance with ?? A issue that this is its second thread on . You are not only telling me this you are saying this to Flatopusa , ballistic , and miked plus others that have contributed good info . Do you think that does no harm to this board ?? Who or where i shoot with is also my bussiness not anybody elses . Surely not with anybody that thinks i must prove something to them . Anything less is tyranny . This predjudice is ugly and unwarrented . |
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Post by hillbill on Feb 2, 2023 7:59:42 GMT -5
Nope
Not questioning anyone but you.
I know loading issues exist, I have experienced them myself.
Seems to me that you need to do more testing and listing results rather than questioning another members motives.
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Post by ballistic on Feb 2, 2023 8:32:18 GMT -5
All
I don’t like to see what I have been seeing in the previous posts. It’s really not that bad -yet. One of the reasons I’ve loved hanks message board is it’s pretty low drama when compared to other similar sites. Info and ideas are mostly transparent. What works for me might/might not work for you-and vice versa. Just trying to help and also learn on my part. I’ve been doing this for a long time. Still learning every day. I have some answers but also need some of my questions answered. Overall - I regard the key contributors as a really good group -a team.
I am not tarnish free - one of my posts (maybe more) went a bit sideways. I have an ego so I get it. I working on it…..
Hoping we can all move forward and contribute to help with the issue that started this thread ? I can’t seem to replicate what happened -flattopusa did some awesome tests. Miked and sideshow have contributed. And so has buckeye, Hillbill and others.
Maybe it’s time to just let this post die for a bit ? It is a rare occurrence anyway.
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Post by jeepeater on Feb 3, 2023 19:25:48 GMT -5
I’m just thinking out loud here, don’t beat me down.
I don’t use sabots, haven’t in years, but I did knurl to give the sabots something to bite.
I don’t think I’ll encounter the condition you guys have due to Arkansas being warmer for the most part. I have seen hard to seat bullets here even on warm days when humidity is high, but it’s not cold enough to flash freeze even in winter like it is now.
Now I shoot 100% smooth size bore riders, and try to get a good fit for a fouled barrel at my average hunting temperature of about 40 degrees.
Could sizing a bit small, knurling, then sizing again be a possible way to avoid hammer downs in the situation you guys are experiencing?
I don’t know how knurling affects accuracy on bore riders. I’m sure obturation would be affected, but a wad could help, again that may affect accuracy. Just a thought
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