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Post by buckeye68 on Mar 2, 2023 16:36:19 GMT -5
If i had to take a stab at this id say the increased area on the redirect fins heated Much More and with increased residual heat than uninterrupted sections did , i.e. they , uninterupted iced first . Just a barrel temp differential alone will cause a flow of the surface air warmed by the bore inside exchanged with whatever the ambiant conditions are with a flow of air Constanly until the temps are equal . Physical Laws . Upon the shot the super heated expanding gasses push the bullet out and expel themselves with enough force to also create a negative pressure within that barrel . Sucked back in goes the current temp , humidity , dew points , & vapor pressure refilling the pressure void (barrel) again with atmosphereic variables . Theres no way that this isnt happening to everybody if the Physical Laws of humidity , temps , dew point , and vapor pressure are met . It is what it is ........ I completely disagree agree. Look at the evidence on the outside of the barrel. Look at the surrounding. Look down range and you can see it’s snowing in the background. How did it get on top of his barrel? It’s Utah and he was shooting in the snow. If you have snow on your muzzle break and you shoot, hot gases will turn the snow in to water. Sorry just the facts. Now you just have to turn the water into wine…..then I’ll start believing!
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Post by Sideshow on Mar 2, 2023 17:20:17 GMT -5
And to think i figured youd post that heating rod first ??
You can disagree all you want theres a reason theyre called Physical Laws . You overlooked those details as snow must also obey regardless when it showed up .
Blasphemy wont help . Please comprehend As Written .
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Post by ballistic on Mar 2, 2023 17:28:31 GMT -5
So I will agree and disagree to the above pic that has a magnifying glass on it. Btw good job on pointing that out. I will agree that it was snowing and the snow was sticking to the barrel and most likely the ports. The ice to liquid could have truly happened. What I’m not sure of. The pressure and hot gases generated from the muzzle blast that was directed back through the fins. 50,000 PSI with 800 plus estimated temps ? Could that be more than enough to easily remove or vaporize snow/ice from the ports? I don’t know the answer. Another fact is ice at the bottom of the brake if you zoom in to see it. Another is the chance that more snow hit my muzzy after shooting it. I attempted to move it out of the direct snow but it could have still landed on it. The brake could have also held its heat longer as it received the flame front. It is interesting to see frozen water/snow at the top of the muzzle brake and also on the bottom. The barrel is also frozen on the top with a verified temp of 29 degrees w a lazer. I would have thought the thinner metal area on the ports to have cooled much faster than the heavier metal on top and bottom that was frozen ? I would like to do another future test by misting some water over a muzzle brake in cold temps -just to see what happens. I would also like to point out that I have only seen this happen on blackpowder - not on any centerfire. Maybe it’s been there - just haven’t seen it - and probably wasn’t looking for it. This pic was taken 20 min after firing a barrel that started at 24 degrees but never went above freezing at the end of the barrel. The chamber and mid barrel temps did rise to 34 degrees after firing. I still believe that it’s possible that warmer core temps from the barrel were escaping out the muzzle and reacting to the powder residue- creating vapor pressure that created the moisture. Again -possible. One test alone proves nothing. Thanks in advance.
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Post by buckeye68 on Mar 2, 2023 18:40:24 GMT -5
And to think i figured youd post that heating rod first ?? You can disagree all you want theres a reason theyre called Physical Laws . You overlooked those details as snow must also obey regardless when it showed up . Blasphemy wont help . Please comprehend As Written . How about show pictures of ice in your barrel with a bore scope. Don’t have one? I can send it to you just to help you prove I’m wrong. That’s called physical evidence. Until you show it, I call BS. Just because it cold outside and you get a bullet stuck in your barrel because of fouling, doesn’t mean there’s ice in your barrel. I’ve had a stuck bullet in my barrel when it was 96 degrees outside because something isn’t right with my setup. I can give the answer on a silver plater and you would complain that the plater wasn’t made of gold. I’m DONE with this post. Good luck and dream on!
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Post by flattopusa on Mar 4, 2023 9:10:50 GMT -5
Ballistic: Another test that proves something is happening here....very good!
buckeye: "something isnt right with my set up". All my "set up" was done at the temp norm for my hunting conditions...35 to 40 degrees. That gives me a temp swing of about 20 degrees to either side of that, and that is the temp range that we experience during our hunting seasons. I had tested my set up at 55 degrees and at 22 degrees and all was fine, so I was befuddled when the bullet took a dying strain to seat on top of the powder charge...that never happened before. After checking out my bullet sizing for spring back, etc...my set up....I can only conclude that the freak of nature that I experienced that morning was the cause...again, snowy, high humidity, and 7 degrees. I had never shot conditions like that with my SML, so I surmised (after I read ballistics post on his problem) that the weather conditions were the cause. To prove that I did the little test that I posted in this thread and although not scientifically conclusive it showed me that moist air and below freezing temps have an affect on smokeless powder residue. That test also proved to me that a dry patch between shots solved the issue. I guess you have to experience the problem to get a full handle on it. This is the first time that I have ever experienced this type of weather during a hunting season (and hope its the last), and I hope you never have to deal with this, but for some on here it seems to be a continuing problem looking for a solution.
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Post by SURESHOT on Mar 4, 2023 9:49:12 GMT -5
With the extreme and foul weather wondering if covering the muzzle to prevent snow, sleet, rain from entering the barrel would help? Scope Coat makes a (barrel boot ) for both CF and shotgun barrels easy on and off, Setting in our tree stands with either my ML or CF in the corner muzzle up , I put a rag doubled up over the muzzle to help prevent rain from entering. JUST A THOUGHT
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Post by hillbill on Mar 4, 2023 14:25:51 GMT -5
Many of us including me cover their muzzles during hunting season, I use either balloons or a finger from a nitrex glove stretched over the brake. I have a scope coat barrel cover but don't use it for hunting, I might forget to take it off, with either of the former it's just a shoot through and replace.
As far as trying to figure out why the bullet is getting stuck in the barrel? Yes I know humidity does some weird stuff in these guns be it below freezing or when it's hot.
Like buckeye68 I have had problems several times when it's very hot, never when it's cold but then again I seldom hunt or shoot when it's really cold out, I have several times but it's not the norm. I do however deal with humidity as it's very humid in my neck of the woods.
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Post by Sideshow on Mar 5, 2023 3:44:38 GMT -5
Ballistic: Another test that proves something is happening here....very good! buckeye: "something isnt right with my set up". All my "set up" was done at the temp norm for my hunting conditions...35 to 40 degrees. That gives me a temp swing of about 20 degrees to either side of that, and that is the temp range that we experience during our hunting seasons. I had tested my set up at 55 degrees and at 22 degrees and all was fine, so I was befuddled when the bullet took a dying strain to seat on top of the powder charge...that never happened before. After checking out my bullet sizing for spring back, etc...my set up....I can only conclude that the freak of nature that I experienced that morning was the cause...again, snowy, high humidity, and 7 degrees. I had never shot conditions like that with my SML, so I surmised (after I read ballistics post on his problem) that the weather conditions were the cause. To prove that I did the little test that I posted in this thread and although not scientifically conclusive it showed me that moist air and below freezing temps have an affect on smokeless powder residue. That test also proved to me that a dry patch between shots solved the issue. I guess you have to experience the problem to get a full handle on it. This is the first time that I have ever experienced this type of weather during a hunting season (and hope its the last), and I hope you never have to deal with this, but for some on here it seems to be a continuing problem looking for a solution. The last sentence you wrote Flatopusa sums it up nicely . Its a continueing problem that i joined in with on this thread to seek an answer for hopefully . Its also why i abandoned fouled bore shooting in the fall & winter to use ONLY A COMPLETELY CLEAN BORE AS IVE STATED MANY TIMES both on this thread and a few others . Long Ago i realized for my climatic conditions during the colder and humid months that the Fouling was Un-Stable and Could Not be depended upon without Trouble . Mzl and CF both . It has been a good move for me as Experiance Has Proven over Years to go to the Clean Barrel Approach with ZERO FOULING present at all . My route may not be yours !!! Generous tips given here has led me toward a more perfect solution as ive tested and reported on . Thank you !!! The science shared has been Very Helpfull to delve deeper to understand whats happening climatically and how it relates to our issues . Im thankfull for these gracious contributions by like minded solution seekers . Nobody can convince us that this issue hasnt taken place in either after a shot or it just has appeared in the barrel Period . Guys that dont have this issue - Great !!! This is about a solution PERIOD , NOT to Prove a Thing to Anybody . I happen to like that our forefathers saw what God Created and noticed things in those behaviors , studied them , and put into our language to describe these Realizations that were Solid and called them The LAWS OF PHYSICS to describe our world around us . Some cant appreciate that even though every advancement known must conform one way or another to exist including ourselves . The friendly co-operative teamwork has made this both fun to explore as we learn together and fruitfull toward solutions . Very Classy . Were getting there.....
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Post by flattopusa on Mar 5, 2023 10:45:12 GMT -5
sideshow; Here is a target that I shot to see how many fouling shots it would take to get my SML to "settle down". The barrel was fairly new maybe 100 rounds at best and because I shoot paper patch bullets I am sure the barrel was not broken in fully. I took five shots from a clean cold barrel to get the barrel to shoot to point of impact (which was previously determined in prior range trips). The first shots where high and the following shots worked their way down to the point of impact. Once I reached that point I fired the three shots for group on the lower target. This was all done without cleaning the barrel at about 35 degrees. I hunted that gun as it was (dirty/fouled barrel) and one shot brought down a nice doe. I reloaded and two days later at the range I shot that load and it was dead nuts on!
As I studied this target I realized that the first three shots (fouling shots) from the cold clean bore printed a group that is more than exceptional for my type of hunting which is all close range. That group would print about an inch and a half higher than the fouled barrel group.
This year and after about 400 rounds total through the bore I took one fouling shot, dry patched the bore and the point of impact of the next shot was dead nuts on! I fired another shot and it was virtually through the same hole. I cleaned the bore thoroughly shot a fouling shot, dry patched and went hunting. My first shot brought down a doe. Thats when I tried to load the second bullet and it was a dying strain to get the bullet to seat on top of the load.....because of weather conditions as we all know.
Now, I am going through some medical issues but if I get a chance to get to the range (I have surgery coming up in a few weeks), I am going to take a shot from a clean cold bore and see where it prints. Then I will dry patch the bore and see where the second shot prints, then I will not dry patch the bore...leave it fouled and see where that shot prints. I might even alternate between dry patching and not dry patching for a good number of shots just to see what transpires. If all the shots will shoot to one point of impact I will make a scope adjustment at that point and call it good to go (dry patch or not wont matter)........if not, I will adjust the scope to the dry patch group and just dry patch after each shot I take when hunting. I am just looking for consistency one way or the other.
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Post by Sideshow on Mar 5, 2023 11:37:19 GMT -5
Flatopusa , Understood . Consistancy matters . Youll find something that works for you as i feel i have no choice but to use a clean bore compromises included . My stressing that wasnt really for you but to make Aware Once Again my method For Me . I write like that at times , apparently neccessary . I did forget to include both Ballistic and myself also have the challenge of bh209 or another blackpowder approved propellant to overcome . Bh209 for those who dont know its fouling when thouroghly humidified turns to a gummy mess . Walking a mile in Our Shoes would be Very Educational to Most .... It aint fun when wet , cold , or both . Actually Flatopusa i admire your use of a caliber & patched bullet that transend time from way back And today !!! That takes it off the chart in cool factor !!! Your skills show . Sorry to hear of upcoming surgery planned . Hopefully nothing serious so you can be back up to snuff in no time . I believe we would all like that .
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Post by flattopusa on Mar 5, 2023 13:50:35 GMT -5
Flatopusa , Understood . Consistancy matters . Youll find something that works for you as i feel i have no choice but to use a clean bore compromises included . My stressing that wasnt really for you but to make Aware Once Again my method For Me . I write like that at times , apparently neccessary . I did forget to include both Ballistic and myself also have the challenge of bh209 or another blackpowder approved propellant to overcome . Bh209 for those who dont know its fouling when thouroghly humidified turns to a gummy mess . Walking a mile in Our Shoes would be Very Educational to Most .... It aint fun when wet , cold , or both . Actually Flatopusa i admire your use of a caliber & patched bullet that transend time from way back And today !!! That takes it off the chart in cool factor !!! Your skills show . Sorry to hear of upcoming surgery planned . Hopefully nothing serious so you can be back up to snuff in no time . I believe we would all like that . Thats funny you mentioned BH209....I used nothing in my BP rifle but 777, 209 primer, and a Lee REAL bullet with a card wad, and wet, dry, cold, warm, it never failed to fire, was always accurate, and, I could reload a second round without patching the bore and it would shoot to the same point of aim as the first shot. Lucky I guess.
Thanks for the support sideshow!
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Post by buckeye68 on Mar 7, 2023 22:09:10 GMT -5
Well guys I said that I was DONE with this thread but after a shooting session on Sunday I had to post a little more information that was compiled. No BS just the facts, some call it science but it is what it is.
Sunday weather conditions was 52 degrees outside with a humidity level of 76% at the beginning and at end of this test section. Gun was a 40 caliber shooting VV powder and LRMP in DI modules with a 325 Pittman bullet. All bullets was sized in a controlled environment and ran through the sizing die 3 times. Barrel was founded and all bullets pushed down the barrel with a 2 finger push.
1st test - All bullets loaded with 2 fingers using VV powder loading XXX grains. All shots was back to back with not getting in a hurry or not going slow either. Just constant shooting. All 5 shots went into a ragged hole @ 100 yards.
2nd test - The same VV powder was used out of the same jug and with the same bullets. The only change that was made from the firsts test was the powder charge was increased by 4 grains. Shot 6 was straight high out of the original group. Went to load the next bullet down the tube and guess what, the bullet got STUCK in the barrel. Two hand pressure and its still wasn’t going down. Tried to beat it down but it wasn’t going. Time to pack it up and head home…..
So, why did the bullet get stuck in the barrel??
Was it ice in the barrel that caused the bullet to get suck? NOPE
Was it humidity that caused the bullet to get stuck? NOPE, same humidity from test 1 to test 2
Was it climate change that caused the bullet to get stuck? NOPE
Was it the size of the bullet that caused the bullet to get stuck? NOPE, same die has been used for the last many shots without issues
Was it heat that built up in the barrel caused the bullet to get stuck? NOPE, gun has been shot for many other range session without issues
Was it sun shining on the barrel cause the bullet to get stuck? NOPE, gun has been shot in the same location with out issues in the past
Now that the 5 whys have been asked ( problem solving 101) and out of the way, what’s really changed that got the bullet stuck?
Only one thing that changed between test 1 and test 2 was a increase in powder charge by 4 grains.
Why did only 4 grains change in the powder charge make the bullet get stuck. The bullets fps increased which changed the node. When your not shooting in the node the barrel will foul and cause issues. If the powder you are shoot does not burn clean you will have issues.
What caused Flattopusa issues. He had a major temperature change which changed his fps and it knocked him out of his node that caused fouling in his barrel that made it hard to load.
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Post by hillbill on Mar 7, 2023 22:47:46 GMT -5
I will add to that You were shooting a .40, that makes a huge difference when it comes to finding the right load, it is magnified vs the .45 cal, not to say the same thing doesn't happen in the .45 because it does, only to a lesser degree. ballistic can also attest to this, a .40 is definitely a different animal. I have had the very same issue in the .40, a given bullet/charge will burn clean at one weight (on the node) and quite differently when it gets off the node. True, temperature can and will force you off of a node causing issues be it .45 or .40 but one will see it much more pronounced in the .40 cal. Having much experience with both calibers I can attest to this. Yes I can see possibly some variation of frost forming inside the barrel given the right conditions but only on very rare occasions. Ice puddles inside the barrel? not in mine because it's covered from the outside atmosphere, and I can only see that happening IF it rains down it or gets snow in an uncovered barrel. I will agree with buckeye68 about the flattopusa issue. Remember having problems when it's hot? the pressures rise due to temperature rise and thus the speed goes up, off the node or out of the sweet spot you go and a nasty bore occurs. I and many others have seen this very problem shooting in the heat of the summer, yes and high humidity magnifies the stuck bullet monster. Same when it gets cold, it falls below it's designed pressure range and terrible fouling occurs.
Bottom line is this. Mark did a test in his gun by going up in powder charge and he now knows it will not work at that charge weight. Same applies to the rest of us as far as testing your gun and desired load in as many conditions as possible to see if issues arise or to find the optimal combo.
If running a clean bore works best for your given situation by all means go for it. same goes for shooting on a fouled bore, find what works for your gun and load and go with it. it's all about testing , yes it takes time and money but in the long run that's what it takes to find the right load. Don't take someones advice as the gospel, what works great in one gun might not in another.
What works for me here in TN might not work for someone in the extreme cold of Iowa in January, you can see what I'm getting at.
These guns are as different as we are, in the end it's up to us to find what works.
My 2 cents anyway, I have been wrong before? just going off of my experience with a lot of different guns and calibers.
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Post by ballistic on Mar 8, 2023 9:51:20 GMT -5
Ok so this is boring/interesting/science but contains the ingredients/residue left behind from fired smokeless powder. I can include the entire article if anyone cares to read it.
“In 1979 Wolten et al. put forward a classification of gunshot residue based on size, composition, and morphology. Four compositions were considered characteristic of gun residue particles, they are:
Barium, calcium, and silicon Lead, antimony, and barium Antimony Barium”
Other data from other sources have added chlorine to the Barium. So I listed it. Chlorine
Please look up the below and verify for your own info if you’re interested.
Barium is hygroscopic (attracts moisture) Antimony when fired or heated becomes antimony trioxide (hygroscopic) Calcium chloride (absorbs 300 % of its weight in water) (hygroscopic)
The science behind this fascinates me. SDS sheets and chemical compositions after firing are boring but packed full of info. The crazy part is smokeless powder seems to have around 10% average of unlisted or proprietary ingredients. Double based powders have twice as many compounds - so the listed residue above can lengthen the list. My issue was with RL15.5 (double based powder).
Buckeyes recent tests have shown that finding the node or area where combustion leaves hardly any residue kept loading shot to shot very consistent until more powder was added. That info is real world and I am closing in on finding this node -after 3 different powders have now been tested.
Hillbill and others have stated that in warmer temps - loading is sluggish when humidity is high. For some speeds have went up - for me they have went down.
If humidity and it’s affects get into a barrel when it’s warm and humid - it only stands to reason that this can and is happening when the temps drop. I have seen frost on a bullet tip and humidity in the last 5-6” of a barrel in the last month of recent testing. I wish I had pics to share. My newest .40 cal powder “varget” wasn’t affected by the visual humidity. The zero and the speed were spot on. It’s also possible that on that shot (had I waited an hour to allow the humidity to penetrate the powder) that the outcome would have been much different. As Bill has stated - lots of research and testing is needed to find what works for your combo. The .40 is tricky. The .45 isn’t exempt either -just easier. How many hunters are out in the elements where this will occur - I believe the numbers are on the low side. The same with this issue.
I personally believe and know that humidity is in the barrel. Going back through some old notes where I brushed the barrel right after shooting on rainy days- I discovered a pattern. When attempting to load the next day the 1st round would not go down the barrel. After removing the bullet and brushing the barrel again the bullet would go down normally. Is this because humidity gummed the powder and the brush smeared it all over the tops of the lands ? This did not happen on sunny days. My notes did not include humidity but show a pattern. Going forward humidity will be listed.
So that leads us back to doing our own testing and homework. Cleaner burning powders leave less residue- just need to test and find what works for each combo. It might be an otherwise dirty powder that burns the cleanest in your combo.
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Post by buckeye68 on Mar 8, 2023 10:08:16 GMT -5
Another example I’ll give you of shooting out the node.
I own a gun called Wild Bill. It was a 40 cal that shot H4895 with a 250 grain Pittman bullets. I could shoot it all day long with zero loading issues and put it away, get the gun back out two weeks later and shoot again without touching the barrel. No brushing or cleaning at all.
I did many cold bore shots with it and it performed the same every time. Zero issues hitting the bullseye on the first shot or a second follow up shot. No loading issues with getting bullets stuck in the barrel.
I sold the gun to a guy and I gave him the exact load information that I was shooting and showed him pictures of the groups and pictures of all my cold bore shots. I also sold him 25 scaled loaded powder tube of powder along with wads and bullets. 3 moths later I found out he was having issues with getting bullets stuck in his barrel. After some information was exchanged, he was using IMR 4895 and not H 4895. His reason for using IMR was because he had lots of it and not so much H on hand and he didn’t think it was a big deal to change out to IMR. He changed back to H4895 and had zero issues after that.
The only reason for the stuck bullets was that IMR 4895 grain for grain did not produce the same FPS and change the node that H 4885 produced.
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Post by flattopusa on Mar 8, 2023 13:34:11 GMT -5
I had a chance to call and talk to a chemist at Alliant Powders about another issue, and asked him about our issue with the bullets sticking in the bore. I have discussed issues with him before and he is very knowledgeable...he is also a hunter, shooter...and, shoots SML's! He has had this issue before and here is the lab tested info as I can best explain it:
Primer and powder "retardation" is the cause for bullets sticking when being loaded in a SML. This is totally dependent on the environmental conditions (humidity, temp) at the time of loading and the changes that occur in those conditions throughout the day... or days when the charge is in the rifle. The ignition temperature of the previously fired shot also plays into this problem.
Moisture in the air affects the performance level of primers and powder. In humid conditions the powder fouling or soot left in the bore is greater than when the humidity is low because the performance of the primers and powder is affected by the humidity (moisture content) of the environment.....moisture retards the performance of primers and powders.
The gun is fired and the powder chamber and bore are subject to a 1400 degree (this is of course dependent on the amount of powder, etc) flash of combustion heat which is quickly absorbed by the surrounding metal of the barrel. This rapid heating/cooling effect draws outside air and moisture, which turns into condensation in the bore. The condensation coats the fouling in the bore. In warm weather it is a sticky mess, in cold weather, it "slushes up" and in frigid weather it can freeze.
If the primer and powder already has been subject to moisture the condition can be compounded leaving more fouling or soot in the bore. the minute you pull a primer to recharge the rifle, and the minute you open your powder vial and dump your charge the damage has been done, and there is no way around it....you cannot escape the atmosphere you are shooting in.
(...in buckeyes case this makes sense. His sweet spot load under the conditions he was shooting was not an issue. When he upped the charge 4 grains it created more fouling and was not suited for the conditions he was shooting...thus a hard seating bullet.)
We cannot keep the environment from affecting our primers and powder....as the environment changes so does the retardation rate of the primers and powders and the fouling effect of the burnt powder residue and moisture content drawn into the bore.
A SML (unlike a cartridge gun) is an open system. There is no way, nothing, any of us can do to secure that system from the environment. A piece of tape over the muzzle may keep moisture out of a barrel, but what moisture was in the barrel at the time of loading will remain there. There are also effects of condensation when environmental conditions change.
I asked the chemist what can be done to correct this and his answer was basically "Nothing". He said a few things might help...leaving the gun outside during the hunting season, recharging the rifle every day with a fresh load, and, my suggestion of dry patching the bore between shots would solve 50% of the problem....but not the whole problem. It is just something we have to deal with the best way we can.
So the "node" or sweet spot that many on here talk about may not only be the most accurate load, but the load that performs under the wide range of atmospheric conditions that we hunt. Dont get me wrong, I am happy with my chosen load and it will serve me well 99% of the time. I cannot ask for more.
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Post by flattopusa on Mar 11, 2023 14:22:21 GMT -5
It might have been stated here before but I am going to start using a Hygrometer at the range and record humidity, loading pressure and the like. I always take temp readings when I am working up loads etc, in cartridge guns and the BP and SML, but the SML requires extra considerations. Like hillbill said it will probably take a year to get everything sorted out, but I am going to work within my hunting temp parameter and give it my best shot. I dont shoot during warm weather anyway.
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Post by jeepeater on Mar 12, 2023 0:00:40 GMT -5
It might have been stated here before but I am going to start using a Hygrometer at the range and record humidity, loading pressure and the like. I always take temp readings when I am working up loads etc, in cartridge guns and the BP and SML, but the SML requires extra considerations. Like hillbill said it will probably take a year to get everything sorted out, but I am going to work within my hunting temp parameter and give it my best shot. I dont shoot during warm weather anyway. Pick up a Kestrel meter. You’ll get wind, temp, humidity, barometric pressure, density altitude, and ballistic solutions all in one. I’m still learning how to use mine, but it’s pretty handy.
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Post by flattopusa on Mar 12, 2023 7:14:19 GMT -5
Thanks jeepeater! I am all set to go. I have numerous hygrometer/temp gauges at the house. Most are +/-3% and thats good enough for for my use......Kestrel Meters are a great product...very sophisticated....and for the serious shooter a great investment. I am just a hunter trying to get my bullet down the bore when humidity levels are through the roof. Sounds like you have all your ducks in a row!
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