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Post by Sideshow on Apr 26, 2023 13:50:52 GMT -5
At ballistics suggestion im making this thread after reading my later posts on the thread "Scopes" . I believe there are some important attributes of a short/medium range scope that are being missed for hunting for many of us . I found this extremely odd ?? The ability to have wide (over 60ft) FOV needed for bumped running game , excellant nite vision/low light capability , sheer bulk/weight , excessive magnification for closer quarters , fast target aquisition , are a few of the things being sacrificed for some of us with more target orientated scopes . Id like to hear your thoughts on this for the types of hunting you do .
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billc
New Member
Posts: 36
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Post by billc on Apr 26, 2023 16:18:45 GMT -5
My list of desires for a rifle scope:
2 - 10x variable 42 or 44mm objective low light capability eye relief
Reasons:
I hunt mainly in pines so low light conditions are common. Many times "good" shooting light is 15 to 20 minutes later than published in the regs. Pines also mean narrow shooting lanes up to 300 yds, so I like a variable power scope. I adjust the power such that FOV covers the shooting lane width at the expected deer crossing distance. I like 44mm or less objectives and medium rings for my shooting position and that plays into eye relief (I won't go into the bloody details of a crescent shaped scar on my forehead lol). On a personal aesthetic note 42mm and 44mm scopes have beautiful classy profiles, larger objectives -- well they don't.
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Post by ballistic on Apr 26, 2023 16:51:48 GMT -5
Thanks for making the post sideshow. I don’t know if theirs a perfect scope that will do it all. But I’ll take a stab at what I like. For hunting : FFP is a must for my type of hunting. Even at 200-300 yards a stiff wind can push a high Bc bullet out of the kill zone. I hold wind -rarely dial A 3-12 with a 40 mm objective is almost Parallex free for short to long distances. It’s also lightweight. The reticle grows and shrinks with the power setting so holds are always correct. The downside is seeing the reticle on lower powers. Reticles that light up are helpful in low light. For paper punching: SFP is the best and so is higher magnification. Some FFP scopes are bridging the gap with center dots and open spots between the hash marks - but still not as good as a SFP target scope. For steel shooting at long range: FFP with higher magnification. Parallex becomes a time consumer on scopes that have high zoom ratios like 6-24 for example Parallex needs to be addressed or you will miss. The lower power scopes like 3-12 can work but distance and accuracy won’t be as good.
What I’m presently using for hunting. Arken/bushnell/Sightron tactical scopes that are heavy and in the 6-24 power range with 50-56 mm objectives. I set Parallex to infinity on the dial and have a zero that’s close to 300 yards. I use a quick chart based off yards in 1/2 mil increments. In early low light the scopes sit at 6 power. I shot a decent 6 point bull elk at just over 500 yards last fall in a high wind. I don’t remember what power the scope was on but I believe it was under 10 power maybe 8 - so I didn’t need a 24 power scope to shoot it. I rarely use the high power settings but when needed it’s nice to zoom up to take a better look. Most of my hunting is done at less than 12 power but on a few occasions I dialed up to 16 power. I can’t see as well now with age so the higher power and large objectives help me a lot. My guns are all pretty heavy for hunting. 16-17 lbs is my average weight on my muzzys. I hike into ugly places with lots of vertical and it’s not fun to carry them. There is a plus with all of that weight. It makes it much easier to hit in field positions lying on the ground. My shooting distances are often really long and I’ve been lucky but practice often on steel and also paper chasing perfection. I’m not there yet - likely won’t ever be. My heavy setups don’t work well for swinging on a running animal and still hunting.
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Post by Sideshow on Apr 27, 2023 2:58:33 GMT -5
Thanks billc and ballistic for your input . It truly helps to make this a interesting thread . Ballistic brings up a very valid point . Many of our SMLs are very heavy and dont swing well for moving targets especially close ones . My 45 currently fits in there and it a Big Factor !!! But there are some with much lighter builds that arent limited in that area and do swing nicely . For my prefered hunting type i like this . Its also where a wide FOV and low magnification really shine . Billc i also agree that in your instance a lower powered scope is brighter often quite a bit . Thats tremendously important in your situation . I too prefer a 42-44mm but i like low as possible mounting . That is possiblely due to stock preference differences . That lack of 4in. of eye relief IS a Big Deal too . Good points guys !!!
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Post by Sideshow on Apr 29, 2023 0:11:49 GMT -5
One thing i wanted to include in this thats vitally important around the 200yd mark and further is buy a Scope Level !!! Your groups will shrink dramatically . Regardless of scope type this is Vital . Set up a plumb bob at 50 to 100yds and align the vertical cross hair to that string . Then set up the scope level . I do this to my shoulder pocket position so comfortable = leveled crosshairs . This hasnt affected me negetivily at the ranges i shoot with crosshairs canted to the gun but leveled shouldered . How important this leveling is in the field to hit your game accuratelly is just so profound rather than miss or worse wound them . Shooting sticks also are a great addition to a mobile hunter . Trees may not always be in the right spots where you set up or there at all . I personally hunt alot of very different terrains and folages . The combo of sticks and level with a little practice makes 300 to 400 yd shots doable in field conditions accurately . Perfect for guys of lighter limited distance/load muzzies and lower power scopes . I prefer the lighter collaspseable carbon sticks (Swagger) vs a mounted bipod YMMV . Im not a prone guy . A lower powered hunting scope of 6x at 400yds has the same difficulty and sight picture as std rifle sights at 75yds . Neither is that bad to do set up properly . Compact binoculars or monoculars offer cheap rack ID if you still cant see them to judge size .
Lets hear more from the Target scope guys . Or hunting scope guys . We just may learn something !!!
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Post by 445supermag on Apr 29, 2023 15:29:03 GMT -5
From now on my scope choices have drastically changed in what I buy and mount on any rifle I will ever own. I am for the most part a stationary hunter due to medical reasons. So blind tree stand or high elevation vantage point. My scope changed to big dialer Christmas tree rets target/competition style. My McWhorter 45xml wears NF ATACR F1 7x35x56 mil xt and love it. I just recently acquired a 6mm creedmoor and it wears a Sightron sviii 5x40x56 MH 6 ret and am extremely impressed. Like extremely impressed. I have a custom 22lr in the works and most likely will be getting an additional Sightron SVIII MH6 to match the 6 creed.
This is where I have come to after years of trying a lot of others. While I may not have owned them but shooting buddies let me get behind their glass to see if we like something else.
Oh I have zero issues using my scope into close range like 25 yards if needed. All my new glass will be illuminated which helps in close with FFP. Oh everything I mentioned will be or is forever FFP. I am done with SFP
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Post by Sideshow on Apr 30, 2023 2:19:44 GMT -5
From now on my scope choices have drastically changed in whhat I buy and mount on any rifle I will ever own. I am for the most part a stationary hunter due to medical reasons. So blind tree stand or high elevation vantage point. My scope changed to big dialer Christmas tree rets target/competition style. My McWhorter 45xml wears NF ATACR F1 7x35x56 mil xt and love it. I just recently acquired a 6mm creedmoor and it wears a Sightron sviii 5x40x56 MH 6 ret and am extremely impressed. Like extremely impressed. I have a custom 22lr in the works and most likely will be getting an additional Sightron SVIII MH6 to match the 6 creed. This is where I have come to after years of trying a lot of others. While I may not have owned them but shooting buddies let me get behind their glass to see if we like something else. Oh I have zero issues using my scope into close range like 25 yards if needed. All my new glass will be illuminated which helps in close with FFP. Oh everything I mentioned will be or is forever FFP. I am done with SFP 445 supermag how do you make that 7x work for you at 25yds ?? Are you a both eyes open shooter up close even looking past a 56mm ?? I can think of no other way ?? Glad you joined in .
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Post by james72 on May 1, 2023 7:38:00 GMT -5
I've never been a long range hunter. I've lived and hunted in TN my whole life where the majority of my shots have been inside 200 yards. I've made an annual trip to Kansas the last 10 years where 300-400 yard shots are normal, so I've practiced and am comfortable shooting to those ranges now. That being said my scope choice is Leupold. I know several on here are not fans of Leupold scopes, but they have performed well for me. I have two VX5HD scopes 3x15x44 and 3x15x56 on my rifles and a VX3HD 3.5x10x50 on my CVA Scout. They have good glass in my opinion and I really like the CDS dial. It makes it easy for me to dial to my yardage without having to think about how many clicks. I know there are nicer scopes, but these meet my needs and have been dependable for me.
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Post by Sideshow on May 3, 2023 16:17:14 GMT -5
Im looking at these for the versitility they offer at Both Ends ... gpo-usa.com/product/spectra-6x-2-12x44i/. And...... gpo-usa.com/product/spectra-6x-1-5-9x44i/ . I havent found Anything Else like these with so many features on Both ends of a hunters needs covered this well IMO . Not much is given up for close or far targets afield . Meopta has the closest competitors for $500 more . Neither are cheap glass @ 1k or more . The FOV of these GPOs up close are Vital to me to truly be versitle as a all around great scope , 65ft and 86ft respectivly . I think these 2 come close to ballistics perfect scope for nearly all hunting situations he expressed earlier . They surely do in my mind . In Hungary along the Danube River running Wild Russian 400lb boars are hunted at Night being driven to hunters with Dangerous Game type rifles fitted with scopes such as these . Thats speaks to light gathering ability and durabilty for recoil @ 20+ oz . Not too shabby !!! Ive bumped many deer and drug them home from on the run . Theyre also dialable for up to 144 inches . I think a 8 to 10lb versitle SML could appreciate these 2 German Precision Optics scopes . Opinions ??
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Post by ballistic on May 4, 2023 5:55:42 GMT -5
Im looking at these for the versitility they offer at Both Ends ... gpo-usa.com/product/spectra-6x-2-12x44i/. And...... gpo-usa.com/product/spectra-6x-1-5-9x44i/ . I havent found Anything Else like these with so many features on Both ends of a hunters needs covered this well IMO . Not much is given up for close or far targets afield . Meopta has the closest competitors for $500 more . Neither are cheap glass @ 1k or more . The FOV of these GPOs up close are Vital to me to truly be versitle as a all around great scope , 65ft and 86ft respectivly . I think these 2 come close to ballistics perfect scope for nearly all hunting situations he expressed earlier . They surely do in my mind . In Hungary along the Danube River running Wild Russian 400lb boars are hunted at Night being driven to hunters with Dangerous Game type rifles fitted with scopes such as these . Thats speaks to light gathering ability and durabilty for recoil @ 20+ oz . Not too shabby !!! Ive bumped many deer and drug them home from on the run . Theyre also dialable for up to 144 inches . I think a 8 to 10lb versitle SML could appreciate these 2 German Precision Optics scopes . Opinions ?? These look like high quality scopes and pack a lot of features. It does not say whether these scopes are SFP or FFP ? And how many MIL or MOA they dial per revolution ? The turrets dial at .36” (mil) clicks but has 144 “ of travel - which is confusing because MILS and MOA create confusion when mixed together. So I’m guessing it’s a 40 mil scope ? Hoping it’s a FFP with the holdovers in the glass and it looks like you can order blank or custom turrets for it. In short - I would contact them directly to get all of the specs on the scope before purchasing. I have seen a lot of misleading (failure to disclose specs) info on various brand scopes that look amazing -only to find that the scope dials 17.5 moa or 6.5 mils per revolution and is in SFP not FFP when purchased. For the $$$ you are spending contact them beforehand.
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Post by sew on May 4, 2023 9:52:20 GMT -5
Since I hunt comparatively short range: always below 350yds, rarely >200, and commonly 100 yds or less, my scope needs differ from most on this board.
Having gone all out on weight reduction on my ultralite 40 , and finding that it’s accuracy is much better than expected (1”, 300 yd 3-shot gps with 252/253 Hammers), I upgraded my scope from a Duralyt 2x8 to a Vortex Razor HD LTH 50mm, 3x15 (20.5 oz). For me, it seems to be a good short to mid range scope with very good optical and tracking qualities.
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Post by yoderjac on May 4, 2023 10:10:34 GMT -5
I've been using a VX-6HD 4-24X52 CDS-ZL2 SIDE FOCUS ILLUM. FIREDOT DUPLEX on my Hankins .45 Encore build. I'm primarily a hunter, but I love the light gathering and CDS. It has nice features for a hunter. The CDS simplifies things for me. My shots are also inside 300 yards and mostly inside 100 yards, but I still find this a good scope for hunting. I did have an issue early on with rings that came loose and that took me a while to diagnose, but the scope itself has held up well so far on the SML. I have a variety of Leupold scopes on other rifles and have never had an issue with them.
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Post by james72 on May 4, 2023 12:11:42 GMT -5
Since I hunt comparatively short range: always below 350yds, rarely >200, and commonly 100 yds or less, my scope needs differ from most on this board. Having gone all out on weight reduction on my ultralite 40 , and finding that it’s accuracy is much better than expected (1”, 300 yd 3-shot gps with 252/263g Hammers), I upgraded my scope from a Duralyt 2x8 to a Vortex Razor HD LTH 50mm, 3x15 (20.5 oz). For me, it seems to be a good short to mid range scope with very good optical and tracking qualities. My hunting ranges are the same as yours. Although I have Leupold on all my hunting rifles now, I really like the Razor HD and have heard good things about them from everyone I know that owns one. I would like to try one on my next hunting rifle. 1" groups at 300 yds - I've never shot that well. Nice!
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Post by sew on May 4, 2023 22:43:41 GMT -5
This isn’t a recommendation, but I am getting excellent results with full sizing annealed 4085 bullets using lighter to moderate loads of faster powders (keeping pressures in QL calculated 45-52K psi loads with DI. 40 cal. 225 402 full sized and 253 . So, a comparatively light, soft, full sized bullet with a quick pressure buildup with very quick obturation and moderately low recoil. This is my 6# 12 oz 40. 62g H322.
Similiar results for my 17+# 40. Full sized, soft bullets (275 AM, 253/273 annealed Hammers) and 73g H4895 and DI. I do not think that these lighter bullets are more or even as accurate as the heavier , heavily loaded bullets. But, likely, I can shoot them more accurately, at least to 300 yards. I think I am somewhat recoil shy.
The Razor is nice, but I seriously doubt that it has any better optics than your Leupold.
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Post by Sideshow on May 4, 2023 23:19:44 GMT -5
Since I hunt comparatively short range: always below 350yds, rarely >200, and commonly 100 yds or less, my scope needs differ from most on this board. Having gone all out on weight reduction on my ultralite 40 , and finding that it’s accuracy is much better than expected (1”, 300 yd 3-shot gps with 252/263g Hammers), I upgraded my scope from a Duralyt 2x8 to a Vortex Razor HD LTH 50mm, 3x15 (20.5 oz). For me, it seems to be a good short to mid range scope with very good optical and tracking qualities. Your goals and mine Sew are very similar . I may have a few more longer opportunities 400++yds in farm areas but i also regularly have deer sneek in to where i can almost touch them !!! No kidding . My low power , wide fov needs are no exaggeration to put it on them with quick target aquisition sometimes on the run . This ruffed grouse hunter likes that alot and im good at it . Ballistic i have faith offers good advice for the more distant opportunities i have in a scopes ins and outs . I still pursue your ultra-lights total package appeal . A bit more recoil i dont mind . I just have more things poping up these days like a whack-a-mole game on steroids lol . Glad you contributed and said Hi . Thats always a pleasure .
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Post by Sideshow on May 4, 2023 23:49:02 GMT -5
Im looking at these for the versitility they offer at Both Ends ... gpo-usa.com/product/spectra-6x-2-12x44i/. And...... gpo-usa.com/product/spectra-6x-1-5-9x44i/ . I havent found Anything Else like these with so many features on Both ends of a hunters needs covered this well IMO . Not much is given up for close or far targets afield . Meopta has the closest competitors for $500 more . Neither are cheap glass @ 1k or more . The FOV of these GPOs up close are Vital to me to truly be versitle as a all around great scope , 65ft and 86ft respectivly . I think these 2 come close to ballistics perfect scope for nearly all hunting situations he expressed earlier . They surely do in my mind . In Hungary along the Danube River running Wild Russian 400lb boars are hunted at Night being driven to hunters with Dangerous Game type rifles fitted with scopes such as these . Thats speaks to light gathering ability and durabilty for recoil @ 20+ oz . Not too shabby !!! Ive bumped many deer and drug them home from on the run . Theyre also dialable for up to 144 inches . I think a 8 to 10lb versitle SML could appreciate these 2 German Precision Optics scopes . Opinions ?? These look like high quality scopes and pack a lot of features. It does not say whether these scopes are SFP or FFP ? And how many MIL or MOA they dial per revolution ? The turrets dial at .36” (mil) clicks but has 144 “ of travel - which is confusing because MILS and MOA create confusion when mixed together. So I’m guessing it’s a 40 mil scope ? Hoping it’s a FFP with the holdovers in the glass and it looks like you can order blank or custom turrets for it. In short - I would contact them directly to get all of the specs on the scope before purchasing. I have seen a lot of misleading (failure to disclose specs) info on various brand scopes that look amazing -only to find that the scope dials 17.5 moa or 6.5 mils per revolution and is in SFP not FFP when purchased. For the $$$ you are spending contact them beforehand. Yes for the money i will find out EVERYTHING Beforehand !!! But you can see now my desires for a True All Around scope by these examples . The reticles on both got a bunch of little bity lines on them when expanded . The 2x12 with much more detail . Theres been So Many things go upside down lately these will have to wait a bit anyway . I post this now from my phone that the phone part Croaked lol !!! Jeeez when it Rains it POURS !!! GOT A BOAT I CAN BORROW LOL !!! Lifejacket ?? When i get my head above water here i will pm you about the scope details for your review . I trust your input . Thanks for the encouragement on this thread . Its the nuts and bolts and whys that does make these posts interesting . Good idea !!!
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Post by Sideshow on May 6, 2023 20:21:05 GMT -5
Ok ... We Need more nuts and bolts and WHYs i think ??
FFP Vs SFP .....WHY and at what point does this become important ?? What is Seen ?? MANY have never had the power or range possible before offered by any SML . Theres definately a Distinction . Is it Really any difference ??
Ballistics advice to me was very good about specifications !!! What should we look for ??
Reticles , boy theres a can of worms !!! Much revolves around these . Are some better/easier ?? Differences ?? LETS HEAR IT GUYS !!! SPILL THE BEANS !!!
Im looking for the BEST Hows and Whys SML Has to Offer here . Will you too Share ??
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Post by ballistic on May 6, 2023 21:20:04 GMT -5
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Post by ballistic on May 6, 2023 21:22:52 GMT -5
I’m biased on FFP scopes that have more of a simple reticle. I still use Christmas tree style reticles - but can’t use the Horus reticle. The Horus is just too busy for me. Open center reticles -see pic -can help a hunting or steel series scope somewhat bridge the gap as a target scope. Illumination is just so so for me- hardly use it. The dials per revolution need to be simple not complicated. For mil scopes 5/10 mils per rotation lower errors and lower scores. If I was running MOA it would need to be in whole number per rotation as well 20/30/40/50. Zero stops are required. A good 3-12 x scope with the above reticle and simple holds will easily allow engagement of 18” and 12” steel (elk and deer vital sizes) out to 1000 yards. A spotting scope will be needed to better spot mirage to adjust for the Wind and conditions
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klook
Junior Member
Posts: 85
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Post by klook on May 6, 2023 21:33:00 GMT -5
Nothing to add, I have no expensive optics and as previously stated, I have never had an optic fail me. I have been caught with a variable on the wrong power setting and that is part of the game, paying attention to what is happening and what your scope is set for. I have not had that mistake cost me an animal however. I think I could get away with a straight 4 or 6 power where I hunt in Virginia. I will say that I am a BIG fan of illuminated reticles. I use a cheap Konus Pro on my Scout and it has worked great. I will say that adding the lit reticle adds another thing to keep up with. Set the gun, look thru the crosshairs, and the reticle is set for daybreak......crap. All good stuff and adds to the excitement!
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