mateo
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Post by mateo on Feb 23, 2023 11:23:31 GMT -5
1st, I apologize for the length of this. I'm sure this has already been covered, but can't seem to find the exact answers I'm looking for about this, so I'm creating my own thread on it. I'm shooting the 45-70 conversion with 65 grains of IMR 4198, wool wad, HIS ignition, 275 grain pittman bullets. Thing shoots lights out so far out to 200. I haven't really cleaned this thing much at all through 65 ish rounds, (which is probably my issue but wanting to confirm). After 20 shots, I pulled the breech plug and gave it a quick clean, and ran a brass brush through the barrel breech to muzzle twice is all, didn't used any solvents of any kind. I do have a welders tip cleaner that I cleared the flash hole with on a few occasions. I'm guessing after around 6 shots or so, I had my sizing die set, and didn't have to touch or resize anything from shot 6 to shot 65. The temperatures I've shot in on (3 or 4 occasions) were an average of 35 ish degrees out. I will be going out to shoot it again within the next week or 2, so I thought I'd pull the breech plug and clean it a bit. It was pretty dirty, so I soaked it in some cleaner for a bit, brushed it, chipped out most of the crud, and called it good enough. Flash hole is clean as well. I didn't plan on doing anything to the barrel, however, I thought I'd size a bullet without the plug in to confirm my bullets are still fitting. I didn't change the die setting, assuming it would/should be the same size. I'm performing this work in my garage that is held to a temperature of around 65 to 70 degrees. The bullet would not fit, and in an attempt to not have to re-adjust my sizing die, I assumed there was quite a bit of fouling at the muzzle end of the gun. So, I used a brass brush on the 1st 6 inches or so of the muzzle end repeatedly, and several times through the entire barrel, but focused more on the muzzle end. These conversions, (at least mine) are slightly choked. It's a little tighter on the muzzle end vs the breech end, not by much, and hasn't been an issue. I originally sized them somewhat tight on the muzzle end, and they were perfect once they passed the 1st 6 inches or so all the way down to the powder charger with minimal pressure. So anyway, after doing "some" cleaning with the brass brush, (still no solvents of any kind used on the bore), the bullet was still too tight. I ended up having to crank my sizing die approx 2 notches (its the die Hankins provides with these guns), in order to get the bullet to fit the way I need it. I realize 2 notches isn't much, but I guess my questions/issue is, do I/should I be cleaning this barrel a little more than I have been, (like I did after 20 shots) instead of waiting approx 45 shots so that my bullet size doesn't change? If not, it seems like my bullets will keep getting smaller and smaller as time goes on. Perhaps after approx 20 shots, some kind of solvent and a brass brush and dry patches would/should be needed, but not enough to remove all the fouling? Any advice would be appreciated.
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Post by SURESHOT on Feb 23, 2023 14:29:07 GMT -5
I use a nylon brush on all my barrels, Some of these scouts the breech seems tighter for the first 2/6 inches, so I and others have had a starter rod 6 inches made with a spin jag for loading. Also with the different scouts I have loaded for the bullet for me will be loose, ( real easy to push down one would think its to loose) but as you know the barrel will foul out and the fit will become more firm, Temp may be an issue, I do run my bullets thru the die 3 times rotating on each pass thru the die.
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Post by ballistic on Feb 23, 2023 15:10:52 GMT -5
This might be controversial as others won’t agree to what I’m going to say about this as they have different results than I do.
The thermal expansion (expansion and contraction of metals per degree of temperature) of copper and lead is roughly double what your barrel is.
As your barrel warms the bullet (same temp as barrel) is expanding at double the rate of the barrel. So your bullet may/will have to be sized smaller as the barrel warms. I am just guessing that you may have been shooting your combo in colder temps and it loaded just fine?
The opposite happens when the barrel and bullet are both really cold. In this case the bullet will need to be sized larger.
A simple test you can do is take a sized bullet and place it in the freezer. Push it down the tube while it’s still frozen. Now do the same with a round that is 70 degrees. The barrel will need to be at 70 degrees for this test. You should be able to feel a noticeable (easier to push down) difference with the cold bullet. You can do the opposite with a hot barrel. Use a hot bullet and a cold bullet- and you will find out if what I’m saying is true for you.
I have noticed an average of 1.5-2 notch differential on my die when sizing bullets for really cold temps to fairly warm temps. My .45 does better than my .40 for sizing as 4198 burns really clean- but the .45 is not exempt from this.
You might also add some routines after shooting such as brushing the barrel right after your last shot -or sending a dry patch in and out. Your barrel and good notes will tell you what the gun likes. Some size rounds for a fouled barrel and send a loose bullet down the tube for the 1st shot - so theirs lots of ways to come up with a recipe for success.
My .45 likes 3 complete brushes followed by a clean patch. The next time I load it - the zero is perfect and the speeds are very close. But I still have to size just over 1 notch for temp changes.
My .40 is a whole different animal. I brush it 25 times to keep my zero consistent - but my cold bore is always 40 fps fast.
If I load my cold sized combo in warm weather - it takes a hammer to get the bullet down the tube. It has almost 2 size on the die difference warm vs really cold.
I have never found the one size fits all through all the temp changes - and never cleaning. Others have and that’s why what I’m saying might cause a stir. I’m convinced with verified data on a 5 digit mitutoyo caliper that temps change the bullets size. The metallurgy data can also back up my claims on the temps of copper and lead expanding at double the rate of steel per degree of temp. Differences of .less than 0005 will take an easy to push bullet to hammer time.
Your results may be different.
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mateo
New Member
Posts: 40
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Post by mateo on Feb 23, 2023 16:14:54 GMT -5
This might be controversial as others won’t agree to what I’m going to say about this as they have different results than I do. The thermal expansion (expansion and contraction of metals per degree of temperature) of copper and lead is roughly double what your barrel is. As your barrel warms the bullet (same temp as barrel) is expanding at double the rate of the barrel. So your bullet may/will have to be sized smaller as the barrel warms. I am just guessing that you may have been shooting your combo in colder temps and it loaded just fine? The opposite happens when the barrel and bullet are both really cold. In this case the bullet will need to be sized larger. A simple test you can do is take a sized bullet and place it in the freezer. Push it down the tube while it’s still frozen. Now do the same with a round that is 70 degrees. The barrel will need to be at 70 degrees for this test. You should be able to feel a noticeable (easier to push down) difference with the cold bullet. You can do the opposite with a hot barrel. Use a hot bullet and a cold bullet- and you will find out if what I’m saying is true for you. I have noticed an average of 1.5-2 notch differential on my die when sizing bullets for really cold temps to fairly warm temps. My .45 does better than my .40 for sizing as 4198 burns really clean- but the .45 is not exempt from this. You might also add some routines after shooting such as brushing the barrel right after your last shot -or sending a dry patch in and out. Your barrel and good notes will tell you what the gun likes. Some size rounds for a fouled barrel and send a loose bullet down the tube for the 1st shot - so theirs lots of ways to come up with a recipe for success. My .45 likes 3 complete brushes followed by a clean patch. The next time I load it - the zero is perfect and the speeds are very close. But I still have to size just over 1 notch for temp changes. My .40 is a whole different animal. I brush it 25 times to keep my zero consistent - but my cold bore is always 40 fps fast. If I load my cold sized combo in warm weather - it takes a hammer to get the bullet down the tube. It has almost 2 size on the die difference warm vs really cold. I have never found the one size fits all through all the temp changes - and never cleaning. Others have and that’s why what I’m saying might cause a stir. I’m convinced with verified data on a 5 digit mitutoyo caliper that temps change the bullets size. The metallurgy data can also back up my claims on the temps of copper and lead expanding at double the rate of steel per degree of temp. Differences of .less than 0005 will take an easy to push bullet to hammer time. Your results may be different. This makes sense to me, and is very helpful. From the start, I only sized one bullet i believe, and it was in my garage at 65/70 degree temps. My next 5 ish or so bullets were sized out on the range with an average temperature of 35 degrees. So, I had bullets sized at the colder temperature that worked perfect from say shot #6 through shot #65, all sized at the range at colder temps. Then, my gun and bullets sat for around 4 days in my garage at the 65/70 temps. I ran one through the sizer at the previous size I had been sizing at the range, but it was much too tight. This has to be due to the temperature. I have a feeling if my gun, and my bullets were to be out at the range and sat out for about 10 to 15 mins at 35 degrees, my original sizing would work. I will have to test that out. Thanks for the input! |
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mateo
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Posts: 40
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Post by mateo on Feb 23, 2023 16:18:07 GMT -5
I use a nylon brush on all my barrels, Some of these scouts the breech seems tighter for the first 2/6 inches, so I and others have had a starter rod 6 inches made with a spin jag for loading. Also with the different scouts I have loaded for the bullet for me will be loose, ( real easy to push down one would think its to loose) but as you know the barrel will foul out and the fit will become more firm, Temp may be an issue, I do run my bullets thru the die 3 times rotating on each pass thru the die. I'm guessing temps have something to do with it. I also run my bullets through the die several times. I've been doing 4 times, and trying a 1/4" turn with each pass. Thanks for your input! |
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Post by ballistic on Feb 23, 2023 16:46:38 GMT -5
mateoYour sizing die also shrunk from the colder temps you were in. After much experimentation -I now size my bullets with a die in a controlled 65- 70 degree environment year round. Keep good notes on what you’re doing. You will be able to reference back to them. You’ll have it figured out. As Hillbill and others have stated - it can take a whole year to get a gun dialed really well. For me it’s closer to 2 years or longer - LOL !
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Post by hillbill on Feb 23, 2023 18:21:43 GMT -5
Where you size your bullets (die temp) matters as much as the barrel /bullet temperature.
My dies normally stay in my garage which is unheated/uncooled, If it gets really cold I must change my die setting, yes it matters.
Those who haven't experienced this either haven't sized in big temp swings or luck is on your side.
Yes it takes a full year, at least, to learn your gun and how it reacts to a full season of climate changes. those who only shoot for a short period of the year might get by without experimenting but it is wise to do so.
ADVICE:
When you keep records in a notebook (It helps tremendously) always note bullet fit, temps, date, humidity, bullet/powder combo, velocity, etc.
the more info the better.
You will be surprised how often you will go back and look at past outings, it might even be years down the road.
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mateo
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Post by mateo on Feb 24, 2023 7:31:40 GMT -5
mateo Your sizing die also shrunk from the colder temps you were in. After much experimentation -I now size my bullets with a die in a controlled 65- 70 degree environment year round. Keep good notes on what you’re doing. You will be able to reference back to them. You’ll have it figured out. As Hillbill and others have stated - it can take a whole year to get a gun dialed really well. For me it’s closer to 2 years or longer - LOL ! Thanks, appreciate the advice. I'm going to re-size some bullets in my garage at the 65/70 degree temps to fit my currently somewhat cleaned barrel. I'm hoping to go shoot tomorrow or Sunday sometime when the temps should be around the low to mid 30's. I'm assuming my 1st bullet or 2 will be fairly loose once bullets and barrel are cooled while getting things set up. Then I'm assuming the rest of the bullets will be about right on after a couple of shots with the barrel warming and getting some more fouling in it. Once I get home, I think I will run a brush a couple times through the barrel and maybe 1 or 2 dry patches, going to try and keep it minimal. Once my gun and bullets get acclimated back to my garage temps, I will test the previously sized bullets to see how they fit. I'm assuming/hoping they fit. We shall see! |
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Post by buckeye68 on Feb 24, 2023 15:15:39 GMT -5
Why half clean the barrel??
Since you’ve already adjusted your die, I personally would start out on a clean barrel. At least you will know what you’re dealing with instead of half guessing.
On my Scout, I cleaned it when it was new and at round #10 and never touched it again till after hunting season was over. I did a full cleaning which includes removing the forearm, butt stock, barrel, plug and models. The only thing that wasn’t removed was the pic rail. Every peace was cleaned and reassembled. Action was flushed with lighter fluid. Barrel and all outside metal parts were wiped with oil to prevent rust. This was done at round count #168.
Also, I personally would never clean my .040” bushing with torch cleaning tips. IMO you’re just asking for trouble in the long run.
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Post by james72 on Feb 24, 2023 21:39:30 GMT -5
My .45 likes 3 complete brushes followed by a clean patch. The next time I load it - the zero is perfect and the speeds are very close. My .40 is a whole different animal. I brush it 25 times to keep my zero consistent - but my cold bore is always 40 fps fast. Are you using a bore cleaner when you do this? Do you remove the breech plug when you brush the bore? Also curious what you and others do to clean the breech plug? I understand these gun shoot better on a fouled bore, but I was thinking after cleaning it would take maybe 3 or 4 shots to foul the bore and start shooting consistent again. |
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Post by ballistic on Feb 24, 2023 22:51:08 GMT -5
My .45 likes 3 complete brushes followed by a clean patch. The next time I load it - the zero is perfect and the speeds are very close. My .40 is a whole different animal. I brush it 25 times to keep my zero consistent - but my cold bore is always 40 fps fast. Are you using a bore cleaner when you do this? Do you remove the breech plug when you brush the bore? Also curious what you and others do to clean the breech plug? I understand these gun shoot better on a fouled bore, but I was thinking after cleaning it would take maybe 3 or 4 shots to foul the bore and start shooting consistent again. My .45 has a small powder chamber that can be cleaned with a .45 pistol brush cut in just less than half. I can leave the plug in. When the just shy of 1/2 of the brush gets to the powder chamber I can pull it back out. My .40 has a larger powder chamber and I can use 2/3 of a cut brush without removing the plug. When you run a patch down the tube with a powder chamber you need to mark your ramrod so you know where to stop -or you’ll be pulling that plug -lol. Both of the above are sized for clean barrels and both actually load a tad easier on a fouled barrel if you load them within 5 minutes. The .45 is better. I have found it best to brush immediately after a shooting session as the carbon is still soft. If I wait a day to do this - it will be much harder to load. I try to not do complete cleans unless I have to. There’s a reason for this. I still have a .416 muzzy that I wore the barrel out on. I’d like to say it was from over 2000 rounds down the tube - but it was really from cleaning it between every shot. I also know bench shooters that have worn barrels out early from over cleaning. So I have went a different route. I have some match rifles that seldom get cleaned - this is controversial. My benchrest shooting friends think that’s a bad idea and clean on the spot. Then you have shooters like buckeye that have found a combo that just keeps on going without hardly cleaning. I’m not that lucky but I’m working on it. My quest is to have all the shots hit the same zero -cold and warm bore - and get the speeds on the cold bore the same as the warm. I’m really close on the .45 but 40 fps fast on my .40 Clean barrels or barrels prepped with lockeze on a patch haven’t worked for my muzzys like it has for others. Clean barrels are printing 3/4-1” different than fouled for me. Brushed and or dry patched has worked the best to date. But when I clean my barrel I like to dry brush at least 10 times in and out with the breach plug out. I then use boretech copper and carbon solvents on patches and then use plain old sea foam on a patch followed by dry patches and I’m done. I do not use an oil patch - I leave the bore dry. My centerfire rifle routine is the same except I use lockeze on a patch (after the last dry patch) on many of them (not all) and works really well. My breech plug -that dirty greasy cuss word of a thing - I use carb cleaner and a brush on it. And then set it in my ultrasonic cleaner with 50/50 water vinegar solution for 10 minutes. I don’t put anything though the tungsten bushing unless it’s plugged. With enough use those bushings -the holes get bigger especially if you load on the hot side - but that’s another topic. For hunting I don’t like to deal with a zero that shifts 1 moa from the cold bore shot. In most shooting comps cold bore and sighters are allowed. Your white tail or in my case mule deer and elk don’t wait around for sighters. Every gun has its own recipe on what will work best. I’m still searching for perfection - haven’t found it yet. |
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Post by james72 on Feb 24, 2023 23:14:24 GMT -5
Thanks ballistic. A lot of good info there!
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mateo
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Posts: 40
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Post by mateo on Feb 27, 2023 12:13:47 GMT -5
I believe I've got it worked out now. Thanks for all the advice. I sized my bullets in my garage at 65/70 degree temps with slightly tighter pressure on the bullet to load (while in the garage), but still loaded with 1 hand firmly. Then out on the range this weekend with avg temps of 32 degrees, sat my gun and bullets/etc out while I hung up a target. My bullets fit perfectly, with very light 1 handed pressure. Then after a couple of shots, they fit even better, (I'd say right in between the way they fit in the garage and the way the 1st few loaded). I proceeded to shoot around 7 shots I believe in total. I had to re-set my 100 yd zero. I ended up shooting (2) 3 shot groups with 1" MOA at 100 yds. Came back the next day, (the only thing I did to the barrel was ran 2 dry patches in once and then back out, stopping before I hit the breech plug). The next day my bullets still loaded up perfect at the range in roughly the same temps. The 1st 3 shots were another 1" group at 100 yds. The next 3 shot group was 5/8" MOA at 100 yds. I do not plan to clean this barrel other than running a couple of dry patches after shooting, unless something changes.Just thought I'd give an update that what some of you are saying is definitely accurate as far as the expansion/contraction with the bullets & barrel at "indoor" temps vs "outdoor" temps.
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Post by james72 on Feb 27, 2023 19:43:52 GMT -5
I'm curious for everyone that has experience with the CVA Scout (or other SML's for that matter) how far does your zero move from clean bore to fouled bore and how many shots on average does it take before you are back on zero and shooting MOA again? My idea would be to thoroughly clean the barrel and breech plug after deer season is over and then maybe use a process like ballistic mentions above during range sessions leading into the next deer season?
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Post by ballistic on Feb 28, 2023 9:10:36 GMT -5
I'm curious for everyone that has experience with the CVA Scout (or other SML's for that matter) how far does your zero move from clean bore to fouled bore and how many shots on average does it take before you are back on zero and shooting MOA again? My idea would be to thoroughly clean the barrel and breech plug after deer season is over and then maybe use a process like ballistic mentions above during range sessions leading into the next deer season? I hope some senior members chime in to help on this. Hillbill/Sew/ultipredator/Richard and tons of others would likely tell you that every gun has its preferences. I tried lockeze in an attempt to get my 40 fps faster cold bore speed (on my .40 muzzy) down. Lockeze did eliminate the faster speed - but the zero was off by close to 1” and it took 3 shots to bring the zero back. My goals are to be within 1/4” and 20 fps of my warm bore (2nd shot) when hunting -but my shot distances are often very far in open canyons. This is much harder to achieve- but can be done. To be completely honest - there isn’t an easy answer. You’re just going to have to try different techniques until you can find what works for you. For me Completely clean (dry) bores have never worked on any centerfire or muzzy setups -as far as maintaining a perfect zero and speed. If your goal is to stay within or at 1” from your clean barrel to the next shot - it will be somewhat easier to do. You might be able to do this with a clean barrel or come really close. It doesn’t matter if it’s a cva - the rules still apply. Keep us posted on what works for you. |
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mateo
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Posts: 40
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Post by mateo on Feb 28, 2023 9:19:59 GMT -5
I'm curious for everyone that has experience with the CVA Scout (or other SML's for that matter) how far does your zero move from clean bore to fouled bore and how many shots on average does it take before you are back on zero and shooting MOA again? My idea would be to thoroughly clean the barrel and breech plug after deer season is over and then maybe use a process like ballistic mentions above during range sessions leading into the next deer season? I'm hoping to find this out over the next couple of weekends. Since I've kind of started over. My barrel was wire brushed cleaned and my breech plug was cleaned before I went out this past Saturday. I had to start over because I had to re-mount my scope, (that's for a different topic/scope is all good now!), anyway, I've basically started over. Again, I sized up several bullets in my garage on a clean barrel in 65/70 degree temps, then shot in 32/35 degree temps. Bullet fit was perfect on both days. So on Saturday, I made (1) shot at 100 yds to see where I was, made a small adjustment and did (2) 3 shot groups at 100 yds fairly close to the bullseye with 1" moa. The next day, (after only running a dry patch in and then back out twice from the muzzle end when I got home from the range the previous day, just to get out any moisture), I went and shot a (3) shot group that was about the same as the day before with 1" moa, and fairly close to the bullseye. Then I shot another (3) shot group that was perfect up/down, and only a 1/2" left, and was 5/8" moa. I made 2 clicks to the right and did (1) confirmation shot and was pretty much dead on. I believe I was an 1/8" left still, so the OCD in me made another click to the right, but I should have left it be, because I then went to 200 yds and put (3) bullets about 3/4" to the right. I then made a click back to the left, and had to get going home. These 3 shots were kind of rushed because I needed to get home, so more testing will need done at 200 yds for sure. When I got home I again ran a dry patch in and out of the barrel twice to get any moisture out. I'm hopefully going to get back out on Saturday morning, and am going to fire off a (3) shot group at 100 yds and see what happens. I will let you know. I'm hoping the barrel is fouled enough, that my zero is still good at 100, if so, back to 200 yds and see what happens. |
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Post by james72 on Feb 28, 2023 19:55:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the info guys. I haven’t shot my gun yet but I do have everything set up now and hope to make it to the range this weekend. I’m sure I will make many trips to the range over the next several weeks and months leading into the fall deer season and I will report back on what works best for me. Hopefully at some point I can contribute some knowledge to the group. I have really enjoyed reading everyone’s comments and just wanted to say thanks again for speeding up my learning curve.
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Post by hillbill on Feb 28, 2023 21:24:25 GMT -5
The answer is?
every gun bullet/powder combo is different.
even in the same gun a different powder/bullet combo will react differently.
It's important to thoroughly test whatever you settle on for your hunting load in every condition you expect to encounter.
Anything less can result in not so stellar results.
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Post by sew on Mar 1, 2023 10:22:09 GMT -5
Since I only shoot 40 cal, for hunting only, max of 300 yards, prefer monolithic, full size exclusively, hunt in temps that can go from 80F to single digits, use DI, my findings may be different and not applicable to most shooters.
For my ultralite, I use 60-66g of various comparatively fast powders with QL calculated pressures of 50K psi +/- and full sized, annealed 253g P Hammers. Even though, 1 MOA would suffice for my needs, my make-up is to strive for the best possible. I was getting 1 1/2” @ 300 yds with a 2x8 scope but now have a B&L tgt dot 6x24 on it just for load development. Later, a 50 mm 3x15 Razor will go on it.
Reason for bullet choice. I want a quickly & easily obturated bullet that will give great terminal performance. Annealed & full sized 253 Hammer (4085) is my choice.
Powder & BP choice. Fast igniting, quick pressure rise from H322, 2015 and a couple of VV powders in the low to mid 60 g range. Desire 2700-2800’/sec and 50ish K and calculated 98-100% burn for as clean of a burn as possible.
Procedure. From an extremely clean barrel, shoot 4-5 times with smooth sized 40 cal, knurled XTPs and H-322. Nylon 40 cal brush immediately after each shot. Full size the 253 Hammer for a relatively, loose fit. Shoot twice. Nylon 40 cal between each shot. Now, the loose fit becomes slightly snugger. After a range session, brush 2-3x, dry bore mop thru. Store it in humidity controlled gun safe. Load before going hunting, rubber nipple over barrel, MB off. 1st shot may be 1” high at 300 yards.
I haven’t worked out what I will do with my heavy 40 and 273g Hammers or, likely, 275g AccuMaxes with a moderately hot load of VV530. Likely, something similar. .
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Post by buckeye68 on Mar 2, 2023 9:59:24 GMT -5
I'm curious for everyone that has experience with the CVA Scout (or other SML's for that matter) how far does your zero move from clean bore to fouled bore and how many shots on average does it take before you are back on zero and shooting MOA again? My idea would be to thoroughly clean the barrel and breech plug after deer season is over and then maybe use a process like ballistic mentions above during range sessions leading into the next deer season? With a clean barrel in Monroe, I’m 1” low and to the left by 1/2” and shot 3 is dead on. |
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