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Post by SURESHOT on Mar 31, 2023 6:12:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the input guys. Hopefully I will eventually find the right recipe for my gun. My bullet is probably somewhere between .4495 and .4500 - my digital calipers will only read to that level of accuracy. My barrel (like others I have read about on here) is tighter for the first 6-8", so if I size a bullet for say 4 finger pressure at the muzzle end I can push it down with one finger the last 6 inches at the breech end. This is what made me wonder if my bullet was too loose possibly causing the misfires. I have been sizing my bullets at home inside (so around 70 degrees). I did size a few at the range, but both times I shot was around 60 degrees so shouldn't have made much difference. I did try several shots on my first trip to the range with a wool wad. I couldn't believe how strong the burnt wool smell was on my gun when I got home. I try to be as scent free as possible when hunting, so I decided to try and develop a load/bullet that would shoot good without a wad. Does anyone else notice a strong odor with the wool wad? Anyone had luck with a veggie wad or poly wad? I've never noticed the smell. Some people recommend wads, and others don't. I'm from Iowa, so hunting season between December and mid-way through January the temps can fluctuate from negative whatever all the way up to the 50's, with a lot or no humidity. I figured I'd use a wad to help with moisture issues if they do or did arise. I also wanted to use one since (like you commented above), my barrel was tighter for the 1st 6" or 8" or so. I can tell you after putting a lot of rounds through mine, I don't notice it being tighter for that 1st portion like I did when I first started, it seems to be one slick motion now. I think it kind of works it way out of it, but maybe it's just me. Mine shot great with the wads, so I never tried without them. I'd prefer not to use them as it's an annoying extra step you gotta do, but oh well. I tried putting just dot of glue on the bottom of the bullet at setting the bullet on the wad and let them dry. It worked well, except my grouping opened up a little bit because of it, so I stopped doing that. If shooting in 60 degree weather, you may want to let your barrel cool down at least 5 mins between shots, and maybe even 10 mins. I'm shooting in 32 degree weather, and I generally wait 5 mins between shots, but also found I could shoot one after the other and it didn't matter much. I had questions about wads in my post CVA SCOUT GROUPING on page one, KYLE posted a link with info on wads, look it up. as far as the smell, after I shoot I do not care about the smell either the buck is down or I continue to Hunt depending. I like what Hank said one time don't make it complicated,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Post by james72 on Mar 31, 2023 19:07:34 GMT -5
I had questions about wads in my post CVA SCOUT GROUPING on page one, KYLE posted a link with info on wads, look it up. as far as the smell, after I shoot I do not care about the smell either the buck is down or I continue to Hunt depending. I like what Hank said one time don't make it complicated,,,,,,,,,,,, I did read the thread on wads that Kyle posted, a lot of good information there. The burnt wool smell while shooting didn't bother me, I was just surprised the odor it left on my gun when I got back home with it. I will say I had shot 35-40 rounds that day, so the odor probably wouldn't be as noticeable on a barrel that had 4 or 5 shots thru it (which is probably the condition I would be using it in while hunting). I haven't given up on using wool wads, I was just trying to find a combination that shot well without having to use them. I have ordered some .462" X .060" vegetable fiber wads and plan to try them next time. I've read on here where other people have had good luck with them. I also found a thread from a while back where Kyle comments on misfires (linked below). In addition to things already mentioned in this thread, Kyle said - "Make sure your primers are seated properly in the modules without crushing them, same depth is important." I have been using the Lee Ram Prime with my Lee Hand Press to prime my modules and thought maybe I have been seating some of them too deep, so I also ordered a Frankford Arsenal hand held primer with adjustable seating depth to eliminate that variable. hanksmessageboard.freeforums.net/thread/3697/misfires
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Post by buckeye68 on Mar 31, 2023 22:15:41 GMT -5
I had questions about wads in my post CVA SCOUT GROUPING on page one, KYLE posted a link with info on wads, look it up. as far as the smell, after I shoot I do not care about the smell either the buck is down or I continue to Hunt depending. I like what Hank said one time don't make it complicated,,,,,,,,,,,, I also found a thread from a while back where Kyle comments on misfires (linked below). In addition to things already mentioned in this thread, Kyle said - "Make sure your primers are seated properly in the modules without crushing them, same depth is important." I have been using the Lee Ram Prime with my Lee Hand Press to prime my modules and thought maybe I have been seating some of them too deep, so I also ordered a Frankford Arsenal hand held primer with adjustable seating depth to eliminate that variable. hanksmessageboard.freeforums.net/thread/3697/misfiresThe primer modules pockets are all the same depth from Jeff. They will only go in so far and then stop. Don’t make it more complicated then it actually is. Just saying….. You can always use the cut edge of a razor blade to check each module to make sure the primer is setting just below the face of your module.
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Post by hillbill on Apr 1, 2023 9:04:06 GMT -5
Some of these CVA barrels are choked, it's unfortunate but it is what it is. That said one must size the bullet to fit snug enough and loose enough. loose enough to make it past the choke but tight enough to make enough pressure to fire, this almost always requires a wad OR direct ignition.
If you are dead set on a non wad load I would order a direct Ignition plug and modules and never look back, it's a good bit hotter and IMO the best way to go on a break action gun.
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Post by james72 on Apr 1, 2023 9:28:45 GMT -5
Some of these CVA barrels are choked, it's unfortunate but it is what it is. That said one must size the bullet to fit snug enough and loose enough. loose enough to make it past the choke but tight enough to make enough pressure to fire, this almost always requires a wad OR direct ignition. If you are dead set on a non wad load I would order a direct Ignition plug and modules and never look back, it's a good bit hotter and IMO the best way to go on a break action gun. Thanks hillbill I think that explains what I have been dealing with. I originally wanted the DI plug and modules, but Jeff already had this gun ready for sale with his modules and he suggested I buy it like that and swap over to DI later if that's something I still wanted to do.
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Post by Richard on Apr 1, 2023 9:34:57 GMT -5
What Hillbill said! However if your are mechanically inclined, you might get some 500 grit silicone carbide lapping compound and lap out the tight area of the muzzle to relieve the problem. We are only talking about maybe a ten thousandth or two. And yes, it will only be on the lands and not the grove unless you are able to create (pour) a lead lap!! Just a tight fitting patch. Your tightness is only on the lands. Reducing the land diameter slightly will not effect the rifling. Your bullet should have already engaged the rifling at the point of ignition. Proceed slowly, cleaning frequently and checking the bullet fit. Only lap at the final few inches near the muzzle. Thoroughly brush and patch out the lapping compound.
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Post by SURESHOT on Apr 1, 2023 9:37:53 GMT -5
I have had them (CHOKED) as mentioned, had a starter rod made to get the bullet started down,then would push down fairly easy, works fine,
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Post by james72 on Apr 1, 2023 12:47:29 GMT -5
What Hillbill said! However if your are mechanically inclined, you might get some 500 grit silicone carbide lapping compound and lap out the tight area of the muzzle to relieve the problem. We are only talking about maybe a ten thousandth or two. And yes, it will only be on the lands and not the grove unless you are able to create (pour) a lead lap!! Just a tight fitting patch. Your tightness is only on the lands. Reducing the land diameter slightly will not effect the rifling. Your bullet should have already engaged the rifling at the point of ignition. Proceed slowly, cleaning frequently and checking the bullet fit. Only lap at the final few inches near the muzzle. Thoroughly brush and patch out the lapping compound. Great idea Richard but I'm not sure I'm experienced enough to tackle this. I wonder if you could wipe some lapping compound on a bullet and push it back and forth just through the tight area (similar to lapping scope rings)? Otherwise I might end up making a 6" bullet starter like SURESHOT suggested.
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Post by ballistic on Apr 1, 2023 13:29:25 GMT -5
I agree w Hillbill on using direct ignition and a wad. It could be a primer issue - but I don’t think it is - I agree with As buckeye stated. Here’s some more options. Here’s what i do when seating/pushing a bullet down the barrel. Record the effort required -in 3 places. Start at the muzzle then mid barrel and where the bullet (just before) hits the powder. Make your notes work for you - not me ! They Could say 1 finger 2 finger 1 hand 2 hand.
For me theirs 4 categories Easy/easy+/easy++ Med/med+/med++ Hard/hard+/hard ++ Hammer.
If I was shooting a barrel similar to yours my notes for pushing a round down the tube would maybe look like this. Shot 1 - med/easy/ falls onto the powder - misfire Shot 2 -med/easy/ falls onto the powder - 1800 fps hit 12” low * die adjusted to make bullet bigger Shot 3 - hard/med/easy+ - result -2900 fps hit bullseye.
I have dealt with guns where the bullet falls onto the powder - as close as an inch or less from the powder. Some guns - it’s how the powder fouls them that creates this. Others - you can’t get away from the issue until you size the bullet to fit tight enough to keep it on the powder. 1 finger pressure on the ramrod is enough as a bare minimum in my opinion. Smokeless powder needs pressure to burn reliably. Loose bullets keep that pressure curve from starting. Also it’s ok if it’s hard to load it -if that’s what it takes to be reliable. The opposite won’t work for hunting if your bullets moving off the powder and won’t fire. The use of a starter rod as mentioned might be an answer.
Direct ignition will surely help. Another option is to try duplex loads -PM sew or maybe some members will chime in on what works for them. I have personally liked accurate 5744 with 5 grains as a booster powder for questionable bullet to bore (loose fit). You will need to back off your main charge 15-20 grains maybe more to make this work.
Bottom line is I highly recommend a $1 purchase for a notebook and a pen. Take good detailed notes on how that bullet goes down the tube. Your setup has shot well before- something changed. Bullet sizing/direct ignition/wads/ or duplex powder loads might be your ticket. I would try bullet sizing with wads then either direct or duplex loads. I think lapping would be the last item - but you need to verify if hard to load fixes it before you attempt to do it. I have lapped a few (mid barrel tight spots) and had good luck doing it. I used “blue magic” metal polish on brass jags w tight fitting patches and got lucky. I would be really careful lapping where the crown sits.
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Post by james72 on Apr 1, 2023 18:28:42 GMT -5
Thanks for the comments ballistic. You always provide a lot of good information. My next trip I'll focus on bullet sizing and wads. I do think I would like to change to DI, but probably a little further down the road. I'll also take your advice on taking good notes.
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