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Post by SURESHOT on Jan 10, 2023 16:06:08 GMT -5
Back when I was a little younger, the reloading and powder were done out in a shed or the attic. The older gentleman kept the powder and primers in a refrigerator, that was (not working anymore). I have a room which has a controlled environment so my item are stored on a shelf, with no issues so far,,,
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 10, 2023 17:04:13 GMT -5
I have never had powder clump (and I am from St. Louis...the humidity capitol of the midwest)...some of it being around for at least 50 years and still use some of that powder today in my reloads with no performance issues. I will say though that I have had powder go bad...a lot of IMR powders when they came in the metal cans. The cans would rust from the inside and contaminate the powder. Thank goodness for plastic containers.
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Post by Sideshow on Jan 11, 2023 2:28:08 GMT -5
I have never had powder clump (and I am from St. Louis...the humidity capitol of the midwest)...some of it being around for at least 50 years and still use some of that powder today in my reloads with no performance issues. I will say though that I have had powder go bad...a lot of IMR powders when they came in the metal cans. The cans would rust from the inside and contaminate the powder. Thank goodness for plastic containers. It would seem that can "rusting from the inside" tells the tale !!! A powder dryer is sounding Very interesting indeed . There is Alot to our buddy Ballistic i think...yep . Flatopusa thank you for bringing this to mind . Jeepeater you too . Ive had both things happen also in varying degrees . Now im thinking about this more seriously ......suddenly even sabots look better Or polywads/veggie wads for bullet to bore beyond a wool wads abilities and its single purpose ....
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 11, 2023 7:23:15 GMT -5
I have never had powder clump (and I am from St. Louis...the humidity capitol of the midwest)...some of it being around for at least 50 years and still use some of that powder today in my reloads with no performance issues. I will say though that I have had powder go bad...a lot of IMR powders when they came in the metal cans. The cans would rust from the inside and contaminate the powder. Thank goodness for plastic containers. It would seem that can "rusting from the inside" tells the tale !!! A powder dryer is sounding Very interesting indeed . There is Alot to our buddy Ballistic i think...yep . Flatopusa thank you for bringing this to mind . Jeepeater you too . Ive had both things happen also in varying degrees . Now im thinking about this more seriously ......suddenly even sabots look better Or polywads/veggie wads for bullet to bore beyond a wool wads abilities and its single purpose ....
....or paper patched cast bullets....LOL!
When plastic powder containers came out years ago I transferred all my powder that was in metal containers to plastic...providing it hadnt been contaminated....that powder became fertilizer.
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Post by Sideshow on Jan 11, 2023 11:18:44 GMT -5
Flatopusa i once knew a fella that wrapped with mylar and some sort of treated paper . No doubt for shorter range that big flat metplat of your cast wont be denied either when it goes smack !!! The BLL ive mentioned was a invention of the guys on Cast Boolits and is said to preform to 2500 fps in cf rifles . That may help as its waxy for paper vs water . With our heads together i think we can beat this if we apply ourselves constructively thinking as one in purpose . I dont view much as off the table !!! I asked previously Where reloads were carried if you recall . I believe this too matters . My possibles bags are runners fanny packs hanging around my neck and inside my bibs and coat/parka for each muzzy i have . Powder , bullets , primers are kept warm . This has helped on reloads vs ice/water and powder . Fouling and when , where , and how in field conditions for condensation matters imo . Im seeking ways to control somewhat the temp drop and resulting condensstion from the shot . Do you or anybody else have a opinion on this ?? What else could we do ??
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Post by ballistic on Jan 11, 2023 11:22:58 GMT -5
I don’t have the articles for this thread - but if you were to google the history of gunpowder and smokeless powders it’s a good read. Modern day smokeless is extruded (forced similar like spaghetti noodles) from a safely stored wet paste. And then cut to what we end up seeing in our containers. Its very origin is wet. If the powder we are using becomes wet-it can be dried. Heat is the biggest enemy for storing powder or ammo. Heat will make powder spoil - go ransid - and your nose will tell you.
My son works for a flood and fire company. A customer had a heavily flooded basement that was full of ammo and gunpowder. He acquired several 1 lb containers of IMR4064 that had become wet to various degrees. Loaded ammo the same. Everything was verified wet or soaked. I helped myself ( free of charge) to some of this. The powder was dried slowly with a low heat dehumidifier. The ammo (243) the same but it took a few weeks. The powder clumped but when hand worked - it mostly returned to normal size. The ammo was worse and a pick was needed to carefully empty the dried clumps.
The 4064 powder was then used for a 30-06 recipe and then shot at the range. A few rounds of the 243 were reloaded with dried non clumped powder (original wet primers were not replaced ) and bullets reseated. The ammo was slow by 100 fps but was shot in a 20” old worn out barrel. The powder 4064 speed was right where it should have been. My son used his companies equipment to dry the rest of the free harvest. Is this powder something I would trust my life with - likely not. The ammo- not a chance due to the clumping. Both did in fact work well when dried and unclumped. The primers also worked well when dried.
My friends that dry and mix large powder lots swear by the powders consistency. They have told me they believe the inconsistencies in powder from lot to lot is mostly from the differences in the shipped moisture content of the powder. One of them sits a top the podium often in the PRS events. Personally - I don’t dry but have mixed l different lots of the same powder. Sealing a bore to keep it dry has worked really well. What to do for a follow up shot in cold or humid temps with a front stuffer needs more testing on my end. I like what everyone is saying on this thread. The affects are real. I might take up paper patching for fun - just want a high Bc bullet ?
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Post by Sideshow on Jan 11, 2023 11:32:31 GMT -5
Ballistic in a regular conical that would be what is called the "Money Bullet" and lyman has moulds for 45 and 410 . Pretty heavy the 410 is 400gr with a bc of 453 claimed . Cast shooters dont argue that . Its sleek !!! I dont know of a PP equivilant . That guy in Idaho , Buffalo Arms i think may know differently . They gotta be made from hard 16 to 1 lead or something like that to prevent nose slump even at bp velocities . A few places offer them as conicals already sized per order . Very popular bullets in the 800 to 1000yd bp competition shoots . Bestill May offer insight into a pp bullet as he competed with them useing bh209 in a 40 at 420gr . It too had the Money Bullet nose or ojive .
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Post by ballistic on Jan 11, 2023 12:11:17 GMT -5
Flatopusa i once knew a fella that wrapped with mylar and some sort of treated paper . No doubt for shorter range that big flat metplat of your cast wont be denied either when it goes smack !!! The BLL ive mentioned was an invention of the guys on Cast Boolits and is said to preform to 2500 fps in cf rifles . That may help as its waxy for paper vs water . With our heads together i think we can beat this if we apply ourselves constructively thinking as one in purpose . I dont view much as off the table !!! I asked previously Where reloads were carried if you recall . I believe this too matters . My possibles bags are runners fanny packs hanging around my neck and inside my bibs and coat/parka for each muzzy i have . Powder , bullets , primers are kept warm . This has helped on reloads vs ice/water and powder . Fouling and when , where , and how in field conditions for condensation matters imo . Im seeking ways to control somewhat the temp drop and resulting condensstion from the shot . Do you or anybody else have a opinion on this ?? What else could we do ?? This may or may not partially address your question. I have alot of 50 bmg testing. A 50 bmg is what I call a 2 minute gun. At 60 degrees every shot at 1000 yards will raise 2 minutes (2 moa) and keep raising 2 minutes for every shot after until the bolt handle is hard to lift and eject and then you have to stop shooting or you will stick a case. A solution that worked very well was the 20 second rule. Let me explain. Ammo was stored in an ice packed cooler that was frozen in the freezer overnight. If the next round was chambered the shooter had 20 seconds to send it (remember the barrel and chamber on a 50 bmg is holding 220 grains of powder and a heavy 750 grain bullet so it develops an immense amount of heat after each shot). If over 20 seconds the round was ejected for another cold round from the ice packed cooler. The above made the 50 bmg a reliable and consistent 1000 yard performer. Our team believed the brass round transferred the chambers heat to the powder in 20 seconds if the barrel was hot - and a 50 can burn your hands to the touch when several shots are fired. When you reload your muzzy I think this rule could apply as shots aren’t less than 20 seconds apart. I believe the barrels/chambers heat will be transferred to the powder fairly fast so hot powder likely would be cooled(in a cold barrel) by the time you get the bullet down the barrel and then you primer installed. I’m not entirely sure - but I thinks it stands to reason. I haven’t tested hot powder or frozen powder to verify this on a muzzy. I usually put my speed loads on my sling to keep them at ambient temps. Hot bullets are in fact harder to push down the tube. And frozen rounds are easier. So I think the bullet and where it’s stored can make a difference. Any thoughts ?
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Post by Sideshow on Jan 11, 2023 12:55:52 GMT -5
Yes a couple . I dont know why but my powders integrity After ive Shot and Reloaded in the Field was in fact Better when my bullets and powder were kept warm . Less Moisture and i cant really explain it either . I reload regardless if ive shot at game . I habitually dont shoot for DRT as in high shoulder or neck or head . Those lungs are a bigger target if something goes wrong so i do track some . Im half bloodhound anyway so i reload . Many times to drag and resume my sit . Not always a good idea when theres now 2 deer and 1 me lol . That nite i unload the charge , thaw out , thouroghly clean and start over . This is how i discovered this "warm" idea after seeing the result of the fannypack around my neck instead of on my stock . Ive never went back to the cold powder or bullets . It kinda makes sense as im not putting a cold bullet/powder into a warm chamber/barrel to sweat again . Thats my take . ... Our problem comes from temp rise after being cold . Not so much from the drop from warm .....i think usually . I do know when dropping after it sweats theres a point where sweating stops . Thats the spot i prep for on reload . I Always 24/7/52 have a pocket flashlight on me and i LOOK IN THERE !!! This may not benefit everybody all the time but its surely helped me . Those that walk deep and their muzzy gets cold then sit in a heated blind got another situation to overcome like loading after their gun warms up and is prepped . On a fouled bore good luck .
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 11, 2023 17:13:19 GMT -5
Flatopusa i once knew a fella that wrapped with mylar and some sort of treated paper . No doubt for shorter range that big flat metplat of your cast wont be denied either when it goes smack !!! The BLL ive mentioned was a invention of the guys on Cast Boolits and is said to preform to 2500 fps in cf rifles . That may help as its waxy for paper vs water . With our heads together i think we can beat this if we apply ourselves constructively thinking as one in purpose . I dont view much as off the table !!! I asked previously Where reloads were carried if you recall . I believe this too matters . My possibles bags are runners fanny packs hanging around my neck and inside my bibs and coat/parka for each muzzy i have . Powder , bullets , primers are kept warm . This has helped on reloads vs ice/water and powder . Fouling and when , where , and how in field conditions for condensation matters imo . Im seeking ways to control somewhat the temp drop and resulting condensstion from the shot . Do you or anybody else have a opinion on this ?? What else could we do ?? sideshow; Regardless of the range that flat meplat hits like a sledgehammer...delivers much terminal impact force. The problem with that design is the ballistic coefficient....They will shoot long but the trajectory is terrible compared to a high BC bullet. The MPBR for all my guns is under 6" at 200 yards and I doubt that I will ever take a shot that long. All my hunting is close and thick and the flat meplat really shines in that situation. Unlike a pointed bullet it drives straight and deep, always produces two holes and depending upon the alloy can be made to expand or not, and it cuts twigs and the rough stuff rather than glancing off of it. For my type of hunting it is ideal....for the long distance guys not so much.
As far as this situation is concerned, I am going to keep it simple. Chances that I will experience what I went through again are slim to none....and if I do a patch of the bore should allow me to load that second bullet with ease....and again, my distances are short and what effect on accuracy that may have are probably negligible. If I am an inch off at 20 yards it wont make much of a difference and most of my shots are well within that distance. I will determine that with some trips to the range just to see how the rifle and its accuracy will do....again the long range shooter has more on the line than I do.
As far as my ammunition. I carry primers in a rubber strip 1" wide (I use Hanks screw in primer modules) with holes punched in it to hold the primers snug. After the primers are inserted in the hole I place blue painters tape over the chamber end of the modules for water/ moisture proofing. When I take the module out of the rubber strip with the magnetic socket the tape comes loose and the module is ready to be screwed in. My powder I carry is airtight glass vials in a rubber strip and they need not be removed to dispense the powder in the bore , and my bullets are carried in a plastic tube to keep them clean and the patches on the bullets dry. I dont worry about the temps of the ammo or the bullets...its all in my possible bag and it is exposed to the elements....which simulates how I load up at the range.
BUT...I am always open to suggestions!
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Post by Sideshow on Jan 12, 2023 4:33:54 GMT -5
Flatopusa i once knew a fella that wrapped with mylar and some sort of treated paper . No doubt for shorter range that b3ig flat metplat of your cast wont be denied either when it goes smack !!! The BLL ive mentioned was a invention of the guys on Cast Boolits and is said to preform to 2500 fps in cf rifles . That may help as its waxy for paper vs water . With our heads together i think we can beat this if we apply ourselves constructively thinking as one in purpose . I dont view much as off the table !!! I asked previously Where reloads were carried if you recall . I believe this too matters . My possibles bags are runners fanny packs hanging around my neck and inside my bibs and coat/parka for each muzzy i have . Powder , bullets , primers are kept warm . This has helped on reloads vs ice/water and powder . Fouling and when , where , and how in field conditions for condensation matters imo . Im seeking ways to control somewhat the temp drop and resulting condensstion from the shot . Do you or anybody else have a opinion on this ?? What else could we do ?? sideshow; Regardless of the range that flat meplat hits like a sledgehammer...delivers much terminal impact force. The problem with that design is the ballistic coefficient....They will shoot long but the trajectory is terrible compared to a high BC bullet. The MPBR for all my guns is under 6" at 200 yards and I doubt that I will ever take a shot that long. All my hunting is close and thick and the flat meplat really shines in that situation. Unlike a pointed bullet it drives straight and deep, always produces two holes and depending upon the alloy can be made to expand or not, and it cuts twigs and the rough stuff rather than glancing off of it. For my type of hunting it is ideal....for the long distance guys not so much.
As far as this situation is concerned, I am going to keep it simple. Chances that I will experience what I went through again are slim to none....and if I do a patch of the bore should allow me to load that second bullet with ease....and again, my distances are short and what effect on accuracy that may have are probably negligible. If I am an inch off at 20 yards it wont make much of a difference and most of my shots are well within that distance. I will determine that with some trips to the range just to see how the rifle and its accuracy will do....again the long range shooter has more on the line than I do.
As far as my ammunition. I carry primers in a rubber strip 1" wide (I use Hanks screw in primer modules) with holes punched in it to hold the primers snug. After the primers are inserted in the hole I place blue painters tape over the chamber end of the modules for water/ moisture proofing. When I take the module out of the rubber strip with the magnetic socket the tape comes loose and the module is ready to be screwed in. My powder I carry is airtight glass vials in a rubber strip and they need not be removed to dispense the powder in the bore , and my bullets are carried in a plastic tube to keep them clean and the patches on the bullets dry. I dont worry about the temps of the ammo or the bullets...its all in my possible bag and it is exposed to the elements....which simulates how I load up at the range.
BUT...I am always open to suggestions!
We are on the same page with much . My glass powder vials are actualky those little mini booze bottles LOL !!! I think i like the deviant factor LOL !!! i carry my moduals or 209s in a plastic bottle on cotton . Bullets the same way . No rattles . Most of my oportunities i try to gear at around 100 yds if i can with Much further distance covered too . But those OMGosh hes right next to me times do occur . I never hunt from 1 spot constantly . Youre right that big fat metplat is Awesome especially in the thick places i go down in a swamp sometimes . My prefered for a smoker most of the time actually . I will have one for a SML too eventually . Whats old is suddenly new again with much . Thats my coming 416s purpose with a twist . I practically never hunt heated blinds or from a shack or pop up at all. Rare . Try that keeping your reload components at body temp sometime . Its made a difference for me for years with dryer powder after reload . Rain or snow dont get at them either or anything else in my bag when carried around the neck inside your coat . I find it extremely handy in the woods . We shorter range guys have alot more leeway than our buddy Ballistic does . I can barely comprehend takeing shots as far as those long range guys do on game . I dont know how to even try hardly to help them . All i can think to do is share what has helped me/you and hope he can glean something from that . The furthest ive ever shot was 650 yds with cf and i took the 8pt clean . Thats a far cry from their talents . I Hope you guys can find something usefull here in this thread .
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 12, 2023 9:47:19 GMT -5
Does the alcohol residue left over in the bottles give the powder some added performance? An inquiring mind needs to know! LOL!!!
Is your .416 going to be a cartridge gun or an SML?
I like the idea of carrying the possibles bag under a jacket just for the weather protection....but there is moisture buildup there as well....need to take that into consideration.
I hunt a heated Doghouse pop up when the weather is too foul or cold...heck I am 75 years old and most of the folks I know that "used" to hunt gave up hunting long before that. When the weather permits I enjoy still hunting more than anything else. So, I use the pop up as a base camp in the woods so to speak, and otherwise I am on foot. I am pretty good into the teens, but when the temps drop below the tens and the wind is fierce the pop up is where you will find me. I like to dress on the lighter side (freedom of movement, moisture wicking, etc), so I keep my options open. I have taken deer from the blind (had a few deer over the years actually stick their heads into the blind) and they come real close so it is not a hindrance. I just put the blind up a week before the season starts and the deer are used to it by then.
And Yes, the long distance shooters definitely have to be on top of their game. The only long distance shooting I do is for groundhog, crow, coyote, etc, and I can still do well out to 500 yards or so, but those are special built guns suited for the purpose.
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Post by buckeye68 on Jan 12, 2023 9:55:13 GMT -5
With all your guys experience with shooting/hunting, maybe someone can explain why you would keep your bullets inside your pocket (body temperature)? I don’t understand how a warm (expansion from your body heat) fat bullet is going to go down your cold (a reduction in size from a 72 degree house to a 10 degrees outdoor temps) skinny barrel. Just trying to learn….
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 12, 2023 11:44:56 GMT -5
My personal belief is that the ammo temp should be at the same temp as the gun.....nothing scientific, but if the ammo and the gun are at the same temp all the dissimilar metals should expand and contract at the same rate for high and low temps...to a degree. I do like the idea of carrying the possibles bag under a jacket but only when the weather (rain, snow, etc) would require it....otherwise the possibles bag and its contents can be exposed to the environment. Again, and I have said this many times, work up your loads and sight your gun in to the median temps you will hunt under and you should have no problems.... my median temp is 35 to 40 degrees...this gives me a 20 to 60 degree or so parameter where my gun functions well under my hunting conditions. Most of my deer seasons fall within that temp range. This year my issue with the hard bullet seating (and ballistics issue as well) was (I believe) not do to temp, but do to moisture freezing and mixing with the fouling in the barrel. If the temp was 7 degrees as it was when this happened, and the air was dry, this probably would not have happened. Just my 2 cents, others may have differing opinions.
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Post by Sideshow on Jan 12, 2023 16:09:19 GMT -5
With all your guys experience with shooting/hunting, maybe someone can explain why you would keep your bullets inside your pocket (body temperature)? I don’t understand how a warm (expansion from your body heat) fat bullet is going to go down your cold (a reduction in size from a 72 degree house to a 10 degrees outdoor temps) skinny barrel. Just trying to learn…. After you send it that barrel warms right ?? There is a window of opportuneity there to deal with the foul/sweating/freezeing . A cold bullet in a warm barrel sweats . Warm dropping in temp not so much . If youve followed what ive worked out in several related threads and posts so far theres a system to it with a clean bore utilizeing knurling . This is still under development But its working for me . Not yet perfect but working . I only focus down on aspects that must fit the big picture in harmoney . Experiances learned over many seasons with Alot of thought then tried and expanded upon . Yes smoker and SML . I do both as others do too . Obviously for this discussion to be taking place some commonly held beliefs arent holding water for everybody with specialized challenges . Real issues . Out in the air as we share hopefully more progress will come forth . Even winter in Minnesota is usually much drier than Michigan or elsewhere . The evidence is in their powdery snow vs wet very heavy here . In Michigan a common joke is if you dont like the weather wait ten minutes !!! These aspects of dealing with this are important to discuss . I cant Ever recall these things talked about anywhere before . This i think is a targeted collective aimed to that . Do you have anything to help add something as well along these lines ?? If so please share your experiances and conclusions . Oh yes , when i initially leave the house im ready to go then . Change out modual or spent 209 is all i must do on a loaded clean bore . This for me is my personal approach starting out to hunt and its helped . I shoot comfortably to around 400 yds or so in most field conditions im equiped for . I dont really push that much or have many further chances . A true distance shooter may find all this useless ?? Id hope not ?? How do you deal with icy fouling vs distant shots ?? Or shots at all ?? Any ideas on the sun warming a barrel causeing it to gather ice ?? Alot to consider .
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 12, 2023 17:24:21 GMT -5
Warm bullet in a warm bore.....that kinda makes sense! In the case of frozen moisture in the bore though, wouldnt the warm bullet cause all that moisture to contaminate the powder and if so would that contamination affect performance? Maybe a dry patch of the bore and then a warm bullet would solve that issue.
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Post by Sideshow on Jan 12, 2023 17:36:49 GMT -5
Exactly Flatopusa !!! In my possibles i carry a jag , patches , and a brush . Moistend denaturned patches too . Even lock-eze . Heavy Knurling isnt impossible to overcome if the barrel becomes colder . It gives away if it must . And if ive shot a deer this all happens pretty quick too . This bloodhound wants to go !!!
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 12, 2023 17:41:35 GMT -5
....now to figure out how to knurl a paper patched bullet!!! LOL!!! For you jacketed bullet guys though that may just be the answer....and the alcohol swab would do the trick for both.
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Post by Sideshow on Jan 12, 2023 17:58:29 GMT -5
....now to figure out how to knurl a paper patched bullet!!! LOL!!! For you jacketed bullet guys though that may just be the answer....and the alcohol swab would do the trick for both. i touched upon this in a previous thread "Cold Bore Prep - Clean vs Dirty" i think recently . I gave info on my 410 smoker on how i do that with a clean bore using BLL lube on knurled PP bullets shot bare no paper, 40 to 1 lead . Id bet if your 44 has a concentric even barrel it would work for you too . That BLL is supposed to be good for 2500+fps they claimed on Cast Boolits in cf rifles . Ive so far only used it on smokers but that 416 i got a pile for will try the same bullets . Doc White used a 416 Wilson barrel too on his 410 Super 91s . Theres a few things planned for that one .
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 12, 2023 18:18:25 GMT -5
I have some lengths of 44 cal barrels and what I am going to do...just for grins....is warm the barrel a bit like a first shot from my SML. Then I am going to mist some water vapor into the barrel length and put it in the freezer...give it 5 minutes or so, then try to run a bullet down the barrel and see how tight the bullet fit is (I will run a bullet down the bore before I start to give me some idea of the loading pressure involved...before and after). Nothing scientific but it should give me an idea if the frozen moisture in the air is truly the problem...I may find a way to add powder fouling as well....more to come when I get some time....if this little test works, or not, it should keep me out of trouble for a while, anyway.
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