"Humidity/Fouling/Velocity/Powders" post revisied.

Flatopusa

I do like your possibles bag!

Did you make it?

Yes......I started with a waiters pouch...they can be bought on line, or at a restaurant supply house. then I added the rest to suit my needs. Its light and handy, and I waterproof it with Atsko Silicone Water Repellent. The pouch has been used for about five years and it seems to be holding up well.

I live in east central Ohio and have never experienced any of the mentioned issues with sml in 13yrs, I hunt with sml only in gun and ml seasons.

I think your test subject will give some insight and looking forward to your results.
I have an idea on what might be happening. Anyone that has been in truly cold temps has surely experienced ice/frost forming on the outside of their barrels? Dew point is hard to completely understand but humidity changes dew point- the relationship between temps and humidity. This is easy to see on your car when scraping the windshield. When humidity is really high the frost sticks again thinly while you’re scraping. When humidity is really low (utah) hardly any (often none) frost is to be scraped when temps are below freezing.
So how can you get ice inside a cold barrel at 7 degrees or in my case at high teens or low 20,s ? I have documented (FLIR gauge) internal barrel temps close to the powder chamber -raising 40-60 degrees when the outside of barrel raised 15-20 degrees. That was in ambient 60 degree weather with a barrel that was at 60 degrees before firing. I have not FLIR tested in cold temps so that’s what I’m planning on doing. I have tested external barrel temps at 20 degrees and have seen a 6 degree increase (external) by the chamber and mid barrel - after firing the 1st round and reloading (about 3 minutes later). Again - the FLIR will be needed to see what internal core temps are directly after firing in temps below 32 degrees (the barrel must be cold).
I have a theory/hunch on what could be happening. The hot core (chamber up to mid barrel) is creating a low pressure front internally. That internal low pressure is drawing the cold (moist) air into the barrel. The correct “Dew Point” is being created to create moisture that sticks to the inside of the barrel. That moisture is immediately frozen where the barrel is less than freezing in temp or where dew point occurs.

This is a copy from Wikipedia on what happens when firing a shot. This might help answer the science that has been asked by a previous poster ?

“Blowback in forensics refers to vacuum effect created in the barrel of a firearm when it is discharged.
After the weapon is fired, air races into the barrel once the bullet has left the muzzle. This vacuum can pull in trace amounts of materials from the environment.”

Is it possible that blowback plus a low pressure front in high humidity (with a barrel below freezing) plus dew point could create ice/frost inside a barrel ?
We are taking about bullet to bore fit that .001 can create hammer time or falling down the barrel so it wouldn’t take much frost/ice to do this.

Will this happen to the shooter from a heated blind or road hunter that has his equipment inside their heated vehicle- likely not. Flattopusa has his experience out still hunting in 7 degrees. I had my experience hiking in cold weather with the gun exposed (cold) and had (fog) high humidity. So something is surely happening. I can’t clean my bore with a solvent between rounds - it wound create a loose fitting bullet. My bore is conditioned to keep shooting follow up shots without cleaning. (Im still struggling with a cold bore that shoots 40 fps fast in my .40 cal - haven’t found the solution ) A single patch might work ok -act like an ice scraper (in high humidity and a cold barrel) but not remove the rest ?
We can pre prep our bores by loading and sealing the powder with tape/balloons over the muzzle and seal the ignition w a fired primer to head into the woods. It’s right after the shot and reloading in the wrong conditions that has presented the challenge that a few have experienced. Any comments or solutions are welcomed.

I have hunted/fired shots in temps down close to 0 and never had a problem BUT I'm a firm believer that a lot of bullet/powder combos are as different as siblings from the same family.
I have proven this to myself MANY times over the years, same goes for different calibers.

To be completely honest I have seen many more issues when shooting in hot humid temps than cold temps but that's just my experience.
Here where I live I seldom see temps below the 20s during hunting season but in Illinois and Ohio I have seen some pretty cold stuff.

Will ice crystals form inside a barrel given the right conditions? Yep, think so, they form on the outside, why wouldn't they form on the inside?
This much I know for sure, after firing one of these guns and immediately removing the plug the residue feels slimeish like snot, moisture has to be present to feel that way, If you leave that plug out in the air for about 10 minutes it dries/hardens telling me that moisture quickly escapes.
How long does it take for this to happen in the barrel? In my experience about the same amount of time.
I'm sure there are scientific explanations for this but I will likely never figure it out, too many variables for my pea brain to consider.

My best advice would be to settle on the load you like and test it in all conditions keeping good records in the process with an emphasis on keeping good records.

Richard and I have stood on the line more than once and upon firing a group where one stray goes somewhere unintended when everything felt right, we looked at each other, shrugged our shoulders and said, it's a darn Muzzleloader!
Sometimes that's the only good explanation for why things happen in our corner of the world.

I dont neccessarily believe this is just a SML problem . I know it also occurs in smokers . And id bet without doubt in cf rifles too .
The barrels are going to react much the same regardless exposed to weather . Defying nature is a tall order for this !!!
I do know ive bought cf rifles and have went to clean then lap some and found Bulges purchased used . What caused this i will never be certain of . Factory defect , perhaps slinged muzzle up in snowy/sleeting conditions ?? Did someone sit hunting like i have sun on my barrel only to find it badly iced when i went in , and they took a shot produceing a bulge ?? A friemd managed to bulge his 30-06 somehow mid barrel . Michigan has seemed really good for this barrel bulge issue on used rifles . Too good ....
I think its a firearms issue Period that this can and does occur .
In the case of fouling i do agree different powders or loads can act differently in this regard . I know theres ALOT of factors . Having made Some Headway though i still believe solutions are worth pursueing . I cant just say oh well...i believe its Prudent we still try Especially Now during Winter .
Who is to say at some point that this Couldnt become a Safety Issue ?? Just sayin....

It’s highly likely that the “dew point” (temp when warm saturated air is cooled to force out the moisture) was present for Flattopusa and I experience. When introduced via blowback after the shot- the highly humid (saturated air) was deposited into the bore. The under freezing temps of the barrels created a surface for “frost point”.
I believe it to be a rare occurrence because this has only happened 1x for the both of us with a muzzleloader. It’s also likely that this is a contributor for a center fire rifle to have an increase in speed and blow primers in really cold temps (gunpowder does not produce higher pressure in colder temps). A frost/ice film in a barrel can create more resistance -slowing a round down a millisecond -enough to build a pressure spike.
In a run and gun vortex extreme event I was part of- many shooters were blowing primers - any many were not.. Conditions were below zero. The course was 8 miles of up/down steep hillsides with 30 minutes of time to get to the next stage. Was frost/ice building inside the barrels to create this ? Or had the barrels constricted from the cold creating more resistance ? It’s unknown as this happened many years ago- wish I would have understood and documented this better. Sideshow and flattopusa have shared barrels bulging on hunting rifles as well - makes you wonder ?

Back to flattopusa remarks on how to deal with this after your 1st shot when you need to reload. Is there a glycol based antifreeze or drylube that could keep ice from forming in a bore ? Would a damp lockeze patch in and out do the trick ? Is patching between shots needed in high humidity when temps are close to freezing ? Or would changing the powder combo eliminate the issue possibly as Hillbill has added ? It’s made me also think about swabbing between shots when conditions like the above occur. I would have to change my fouled bore to a clean bore on every shot- I’m not excited to do that. I’m already running direct ignition in a bolt action so the clocks ticking.

Lock-eze has helped but its not "The Answer" . Ive tried CLP swabbed too . Messy fouling and too thick i thought . I also think like ballistic hinted on something slippery and hopefully wont mix with water i may add . Unfreezeable . Something where ice/frost cant "take ahold".

The fouling is the thing for most . How to keep it useable ?? Im going to keep on trying to remove this as its become a non stable variable at this point . I know most couldnt understand why id do that . This situation right here is Why . I saw it as a liability for my conditions and impossible to maintain . Nothing space cadet about it . I honestly dont see how it helps in these circumstances . Right now , mid January , its presently 55 deg and sunny . I never know what i will have so a constant must be found and thats a clean bore . Now to figure out the rest ......
Any ideas ??
Flatopusa that is fabulous that you did this test !!! Youre quite the asset around here !!!
Now that we have both yours and Ballistics findings what now ??
I too most often are a shorter range shooter . Youve only had that 1 time Known Of causeing difficulty . Thats great !!! Ballistic was the same but different up in those mountainsand its probable more curve balls will come his way . Aside from Safety , especially with miked and i dealing often with this , i dont envy Ballistic at all . Across a canyon how are you supposed to get closer up the other side if accuracy is lost ?? Geeez ....!!! I question this myself too with smaller farm fields far closer than his shots with this obstacle . Hard to believe only 4 guys approximately are seriously affected ?? At any rate Thank You for youre dilegence to Test with that drop . Classy . Stay tuned we might get somewhere eventually !!! .

Lookie there , i had forgotten this . Flatopusa youre a sharp cookie !!! This is just about exactly what i was thinking but didnt lol . Thank you . I actually have some too . MIL-TESTED and Approved Durable if i recall correctly . I just might get myself a dedicated mop if this pans out .
Now for the thermometer to drop.....