|
|
Post by buckdoehunter on Feb 9, 2017 13:09:56 GMT -5
It was a good, cold, windless day to do some single powder testing for next years hunting. I loaded up some 70gr charges of IMR4198 and knurled up some 250gr Barnes TEZ bullets. The rifle was prepped by swabbing the bore with an alcohol patch followed by a dry patch then 3 primers fired to clear/fowl the bore. The rifle was loaded and all shooting supplies were placed in my truck to cool overnight, temps dropped down to around 5*F, at the range temps warmed to 10*F. Remington 700ML with a .458 McGowen barrel, Savage 209 bushing (.030) breech plug  70gr IMR4198 .060 veggie wad 250gr Barnes TEZ, knurled Winchester 209 primer, I know the Feds are hotter but if the Win won't work, I don't want to be right on the edge of ignition, but I may try them anyway under the same conditions. First shot at the range produced a no fire with the bullet pushed out the barrel about 10' in front of the bench. I really thought the rifle would fire. Oh well, I put another primer in to make sure the barrel was clear and out popped my wad and powder.  I had some duplex loads with me to see how they would shoot. Instant ignition and a decent group. I'll play with it some in the future, I need to shoot through a chrony to see what my speeds are. 7gr IMR4759 / 62gr IMR4198 everything else the same as above The 1st shot is high right, the 2nd shot in the same hole, 3rd slightly right and lower, 3/4" group Shot next to the bull is after 5 clicks down and 4 clicks left  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 13:28:24 GMT -5
I never could get my McRem to shoot singles with 250's so I tried 300's and still no go. I believe 2 things, 1 - barrel choked so I had to size bullets looser to get them started and so it would be tight for about 3" then get loose until it sat ontop of the powder (not enough back force for ignition) 2 - Win209 primers, just don't think they were made for singles. I feel after all the reading I did that Fed and CCI primers are the way to go. If you want the 250's to shoot singles I'd try to knurl them up a ton and try full forming them. Yes I know it's not true full forming but it's close.  I'd get CCI Mag Primer or Federal 209A primers and make sure they are a tight fit. I plan on trying this just haven't got there yet. Working on a Savage Brux build now. Good luck |
|
|
|
Post by buckdoehunter on Feb 9, 2017 13:59:44 GMT -5
I never could get my McRem to shoot singles with 250's so I tried 300's and still no go. Good info on the 300gr, I thought the 290gr TEZ could make a difference but I won't waste time with that. I have shot my McRem in the warmer months with the same single powder load that I tried today and it shoot good. I just always duplexed with Clays for cold weather performance but Clays is just too hard on my equipment to continue to use it. I need to find some N110, I only have a little less than a pound of 4579 left to play with. |
|
|
|
Post by deadeyedon89 on Feb 9, 2017 15:39:27 GMT -5
You could just put a HIS ignition in and forget about all the duplex/misfires? I have shot all bullets/weight out of my SPML from Jeff in all weather climates including -10 degree temps and zero misfires or hangfires... when shooting 209's in the past every once in a while I would get a hangfire (CCI 209m) and not to mention the leaking/blowback. I am so pleased with this system that I am sending multiple different MZ's to be converted to Jeff's ignition system. Thanks for this info, because it reminds me of the fights I had in the past with 209's.
|
|
|
|
Post by deadeyedon89 on Feb 9, 2017 15:42:16 GMT -5
You could just put a HIS ignition in and forget about all the duplex/misfires? I have shot all bullets/weight out of my SPML from Jeff in all weather climates including -10 degree temps and zero misfires or hangfires... when shooting 209's in the past every once in a while I would get a hangfire (CCI 209m) and not to mention the leaking/blowback. I am so pleased with this system that I am sending multiple different MZ's to be converted to Jeff's ignition system. Thanks for this info, because it reminds me of the fights I had in the past with 209's. I missed the 700ml action part, Not sure if this can be done with HIS system |
|
|
|
Post by kskaggs on Feb 9, 2017 16:18:53 GMT -5
Jeff doesn't touch 700ml. or at least that's what he has said in the past.
|
|
|
|
Post by fishhawk on Feb 9, 2017 16:29:03 GMT -5
Make your bullet fit tighter or use a duplex
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Feb 9, 2017 16:32:21 GMT -5
From Mr. Duplex..............here is another thought. Put in a .035" bushing and go with Fed. 209A primers and see what your results are. I have the same problem with the HIS only I am using a .026 bushing and it would not light up a N-110/H4198 duplex...............But works fine with Clays and Win. 209's. So, even with the HIS, you have to watch the bushing size and the load. I was all set to try my new plug and modules Hank sent me (.035" bushing). I had 74 gr. of H-4198 loaded for a single, 90 gr. of 3031 and then a 40/40 duplex of 4198/3031. But, I got me a cold and did not go to the range so it will have to wait till next tuesday. Don't sell the 209 system short! It does work but you need to learn how to feed it! The more you play and experiment with these loads and systems, the more comfortable you get with their diet! |
|
|
|
Post by dennis on Feb 9, 2017 17:08:39 GMT -5
I have a HIS 209bp in my apex and .035 bushing it has went bang every shot even at 8-10 degrees. Maybe as Richard stated just a bushing and primer change will so it.
|
|
|
|
Post by 12ptdroptine on Feb 9, 2017 17:15:26 GMT -5
Mr.Duplex.....I love it!
Drop
|
|
|
|
Post by dennis on Feb 9, 2017 19:11:24 GMT -5
You could just put a HIS ignition in and forget about all the duplex/misfires? I have shot all bullets/weight out of my SPML from Jeff in all weather climates including -10 degree temps and zero misfires or hangfires... when shooting 209's in the past every once in a while I would get a hangfire (CCI 209m) and not to mention the leaking/blowback. I am so pleased with this system that I am sending multiple different MZ's to be converted to Jeff's ignition system. Thanks for this info, because it reminds me of the fights I had in the past with 209's. I missed the 700ml action part, Not sure if this can be done with HIS system I believe Jeff's new Rem.barrels with barrel nut will fit the 700ml action. If you currently have a savage plug you can't just swap out with HIS ignition, different threads. |
|
|
|
Post by Hank on Feb 9, 2017 19:33:37 GMT -5
The 700 pre-fits will only fit the 700 center fire actions and the new 700 ml actions. The older 700 ml rifles it will not work on.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 19:54:29 GMT -5
I have a HIS 209bp in my apex and .035 bushing it has went bang every shot even at 8-10 degrees. Maybe as Richard stated just a bushing and primer change will so it. Are you also shooting 250 grain bullets and what primers are you using? What powder? Are you smooth sizing? Sorry for all the questions. 😃 |
|
|
|
Post by dennis on Feb 9, 2017 21:31:57 GMT -5
I am still trying loads to get decent grouping with 200gr ftx and 250gr xtp. I am using win. 209 primers smooth-sizing one hand firm seating with fouled barrel. I am still increasing powder charges to get enough pressure to obturate bullets. From talking to Richard I am convinced that My loads are anemic, so I'll increase with caution. Have been using n110 and h4198 as singles not duplex, goes bang every time. I hunted with 200sst and hlb with 56 h4198 very accurate load. I am just getting my feet wet with the sabot-less loads and proceeding with caution.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 21:46:37 GMT -5
During my first pressure trace ignition system comparison testing, I was using loose loading projectiles with both systems AND they both had .035 bushings. The LRMP went bang every time, made more pressure and velocity. The 209 gun had 2 misfires with Winchester primers. Switched to federal and ran the traces that produced lower velocities, pressures and rise times. IMO, if the difference between a ftf and boom with a 209 is winchester vs federal primers, then that is a super small margin to rely on. Especially after driving several hours, renting a hotel room, buying out of state licenses, and wasting my time on a hunt that MAY end in a misfire. Call me whatever, but as far as I'm concerned it is LRMP or nothing with singles.
|
|
|
|
Post by elkman1310 on Feb 9, 2017 22:01:56 GMT -5
I have used .026 bushings and .030 bushings with CCI 20Mag primers and Federal 209A primers no Winchester primers. I also stay away from 250 gr bullets. I have never hard a gun fail to fire even when it was left outside in a in heated shed in zero degree weather. &0grs of IMR 4198 is not a light load even with a 250 gr bullet. The Barnes solid copper bullet is a poor choice to try and get good accuracy unless you duplex like Richard. If your barrel is loose at the breech plug end and you have to knurl the bullet you have a problem with the barrel. You can go to a bigger bushing .035 would certainly let more spark go through the breech plug'
With a clean breech plug when I fire a Fed 209A primer off with out anything else in the barrel I will see sparks fly out the end of a 26" barrel after two shots it will be less noticeable. Man if that isn't hot enough to light a powder charge off I don't know what is.
A 209 Mag primer has a lot of energy and if your bullet is to loose or not heavy enough the energy from the primer will move the powder charge an wad and bullet before you will get proper ignition it is not the fault of the 209Mag primer it is the design of your breech plug and the barrel. I only like using 300gr bullets never had a problem with any of those.
|
|
|
|
Post by linebaugh on Feb 10, 2017 9:27:21 GMT -5
During my first pressure trace ignition system comparison testing, I was using loose loading projectiles with both systems AND they both had .035 bushings. The LRMP went bang every time, made more pressure and velocity. The 209 gun had 2 misfires with Winchester primers. Switched to federal and ran the traces that produced lower velocities, pressures and rise times. IMO, if the difference between a ftf and boom with a 209 is winchester vs federal primers, then that is a super small margin to rely on. Especially after driving several hours, renting a hotel room, buying out of state licenses, and wasting my time on a hunt that MAY end in a misfire. Call me whatever, but as far as I'm concerned it is LRMP or nothing with singles. What he said! I think Scat will probably tell you he did not appreciate me challanging his idea that 209s develop 5,000 more PSI per given load. Problem is I knew there was no data and that the only place I had heard that was on the other board and mostly by the same guy who is trying to defend his BS theory now... all while the competition steals Jeffs system... the same one that everyone on that site was and are still so much against that it cant be spoken. Lol. At any rate you should be able to ignite singles with a 209. Tighten up that bullet, more knurl or open the sizer up. I have never had a misfire with Win 209s in an Apex that I run 240s in. That's not to say I never will but I keep that gun clean and the nose does seal. The cup leaks but I suspect this has nothing to do with ignition. Also as stated heavier bullets will help. |
|
|
|
Post by schunter on Feb 10, 2017 10:38:08 GMT -5
In a McGowen a Barnes will typically fall down the barrel right out of the pack so the only thing you can do is knurl it up for a good fit. I bet you could have good ignition with singles using a different bullet and Fed 209A.
|
|
|
|
Post by dannoboone on Feb 10, 2017 12:34:37 GMT -5
Ever since Rick Bibby first introduced it to the other board, I've shot nothing
but duplex loads. It just became 2d nature. N110 wasn't too hard on vent
liners, and I have used it even after going to .030 bushings, both with PR
Bullet's LRMP system and the Savage 209 converted plug. Single powders
may work well with 300+gr bullets, but I shoot 200-275gr bullets and have
had 0 ignition failures with N110/H335, H322, N120, IMR3031 (seems like
sumthin's getting left out).
There was a problem getting 245gr Spitfires to obturate with very poor
accuracy, but I found that Green Dot burned fast enough with H322 to
take care of that problem. However, that had nothing to do with the load
going "bang".
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 15:54:53 GMT -5
During my first pressure trace ignition system comparison testing, I was using loose loading projectiles with both systems AND they both had .035 bushings. The LRMP went bang every time, made more pressure and velocity. The 209 gun had 2 misfires with Winchester primers. Switched to federal and ran the traces that produced lower velocities, pressures and rise times. IMO, if the difference between a ftf and boom with a 209 is winchester vs federal primers, then that is a super small margin to rely on. Especially after driving several hours, renting a hotel room, buying out of state licenses, and wasting my time on a hunt that MAY end in a misfire. Call me whatever, but as far as I'm concerned it is LRMP or nothing with singles. What he said! I think Scat will probably tell you he did not appreciate me challanging his idea that 209s develop 5,000 more PSI per given load. Problem is I knew there was no data and that the only place I had heard that was on the other board and mostly by the same guy who is trying to defend his BS theory now... all while the competition steals Jeffs system... the same one that everyone on that site was and are still so much against that it cant be spoken. Lol. At any rate you should be able to ignite singles with a 209. Tighten up that bullet, more knurl or open the sizer up. I have never had a misfire with Win 209s in an Apex that I run 240s in. That's not to say I never will but I keep that gun clean and the nose does seal. The cup leaks but I suspect this has nothing to do with ignition. Also as stated heavier bullets will help. As a matter of fact, I do appreciate your challenging me on the thought of a 209 having 2000 psi more pressure than an LRMP. I got that info where you saw it and "That Guy" was WRONG and is STILL WRONG today...You just can't be nice to people like that. I tried. If them or their buddies didn't perform the testing, then it wasn't done right or could have been done differently/better. Why not man up and offer suggestions? Your challenging me was just another nudge toward dropping a grand on equipment, if only for myself, to prove or disprove it. The Myth has been busted. LOL Sure, a 209 can AND DOES work when conditions are held to a strict standard. But stray from those standards and they may not cut the mustard. Yes, I still hunt primarily with a 209 ignited Ultrahunter conversion simply because it was converted before I heard of Jeff. It is always duplexed and has Never failed me. To each his own. Find yourself outside those strict standards at a most inopportune time and you will have regrets. |
|
