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Post by Richard on Apr 26, 2016 21:38:19 GMT -5
Back to the ole’ grind playin’ and testin’ bullets and powders! Fresh off the Challenge, I wanted to do some testing with the duplex I shot there and a try at tweaking it a little. For this phase, I used some generic Hornady SST bullets (the ones with the more rounded base – as opposed to the FTX version which has a much flatter base like the XTP’s) (both of which have been discontinued by Hornady except when purchased with the sabots.) So, I started out on a clean, slick barrel with 5/66 of Clays/H4198 and the 300 SST along with a Win. 209 primer…………..NO BANG!? So, I re-seated and put in a CCI Mag. primer. (now the duplex is mixed ) Anyway, it goes bang @2657 fps (100 fps slower than normal) So, using the same load, this time with the Win. primer I get a .890 group with shots 1 and 3 in the same hole. 2745 fps with 10 fps ES! Great! Next I got to 5/65 (dropped a grain) and got confusing velocity results? 1 and 2 in one hole………both 2774 fps. Shot #3 2686 and it goes a little out of the group??? Shot #4 really lower in velocity @2545?...but back in the group? Shot #5 also in the group back up at 2709. The four shot group went .335” and all five in 1.285” Have no clue as to the cause? So, thinking it might have something to do with rounded base and maybe a loss of pressure, I shot the next group with the same charge AND a veggie wad! HOLY BAT CRAP? The groups went crazy but the velocity was fine and the ES was only 18 fps? It did not like the wad? 3.330 group. Moving along I went with the same load, no wad and a CCI Mag. primer. Vel. At 2698 and a 5.5 fps ES!!!! The group was 1.1” but centered on the bull and triangular. For group #5 I went back to 5/66, no wad and the CCI primer. This group went .625, averaged 2734 fps with a 24 fps ES but shot #2 leaked pressure around primer (not the cup),it bulged just below the rim and was sticky on the bolt face? 1 and 3 OK? With only 2 of these SST’s left I shot the same 5/66 with a Fed. 209A primer. The first shot OK, the second one was sticky/leaky/bulgy? Shot 1 at 2751 fps and #2 at 2749 fps. Again, one sticking and one not? With only 2 fps between them. Confusing! For my last group at 100 yards I switched to the 275 Pittman with 5/66, no wad and the Win. primer. 2804 average with 8 fps ES and a .650” group. Nice! I only had one more 275 sized so I cranked up the scope to 3 ½ MOA and let it rip at 300 yards. Perfect elevation and just slightly right of dead center. Nice! Lastly with the Rem/Brux I was going to shoot a 3 shot group at 300 yards with the 300 Pittman. (4 MOA) Shot #1 almost perfect with shots 2 and 3 moving out to the right a bit. (1.975”) so far. Seeing those two bullets nesting together I tried a fourth hoping to get a ½” 3 shot group…………but? Not to happen, it came back over to where #1 was! Still the four shot group was a tenth smaller than my Challenge three shot group? Fece’ Occurs! I then played with the Rem/Shilen…..after a couple of shots at the steel, I shot a 7 shot group of 5.360” with the 300 SST and 5/66. Vel. At 2773 with a low 14 fps ES. I was using 4 MOA and it needed 4 ½. There was some slight breeze as evidenced by the Indian grass moving on the 200 yard berm, so whether it was or was not a factor, I tend to believe it was just the lower quality pistol bullet being pushed well beyond its limits.  screen shots photo uploading websites |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 22:56:48 GMT -5
Very interesting report!! Have you shot many Pittman bullets through the shillen? Don't pay attention to many post anymore, busy being busy.  curious what it does at 300 and beyond with the Pittman bullets!! Thanks for the report Richard!! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 4:27:33 GMT -5
Good report Richard.
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Post by hillbill on Apr 27, 2016 6:19:53 GMT -5
X2
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Post by schunter on Apr 27, 2016 7:32:27 GMT -5
Thanks for the report Richard.
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Post by Richard on Apr 27, 2016 15:03:35 GMT -5
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Post by Richard on Apr 27, 2016 15:27:14 GMT -5
If you recall two weeks ago I was complaining that I was getting leakage between the primer and cup in the Shilen? That plug of Luke's had a .031 bushing in it. I replaced it with a .024 bushing I had gotten from Earnhardt some time back. It had quite a few hundred shots thru it (started out .023). Well, the leakage has stopped altogether now and ignition is good with the Winchester primers. So the smaller hole has definitely fixed the problem.
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Post by deadeyedon89 on Apr 27, 2016 17:37:07 GMT -5
Nice shooting Richard.... Interesting to see all the results with and without wads.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 17:46:06 GMT -5
Richard, unless it is an optical illusion, the cups that bulged have primers that are flattened to a larger diameter. To me that indicates more pressure. If you could get more cup into the breech plug maybe they wouldn't bulge as easily. I have .230" of cup in the breech plug and a .040" bushing with no bulging as long as the loads do not greatly exceed 45kpsi. IMO, we have exceeded the chamber pressures that a 209 primer can take and definitely surpassed their design parameters. Without any modifications, your options are 1) enlarge the flame channel or 2) drop the bushing size as you have done.You have so much data that we should rent time on Titan at ORNL to sort it. LOL
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Post by Richard on Apr 27, 2016 18:40:37 GMT -5
Bill..........these primers go as far as physically possible into the BP. As a matter of fact, I sent my barreled action up to Elkman and he made a new bolt nose and breech plug just for that purpose. (he is a skilled machinist). The big question is why one bulged and one did not? Same load basically the same fps?..........Yet, Winchester primers come out clean as a whistle all over and not a whisper of a bulge or stress anywhere on the primer?
Don........that group with the wads really threw me for a loop?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2016 19:31:27 GMT -5
The only thing that can bulge a primer is pressure. So, for some reason, the pressure reaching your primer is not the same every time. Ideas: loading pressure/bullet fit, wad/no wad, could the old bushing have been cracked with pieces moving around between shots? I had that happen too.
The bottom line is that if you had a rifle action, you could easily replace the ASG plug with a Hankins plug because they are both rear seal. The ASG plug is 9/16 and the Hankins plug is 5/8. It is an easy modification to make. I just installed one in a Brux a couple of weeks ago.
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Post by elkman1310 on Apr 28, 2016 8:49:50 GMT -5
Strange things have happen with these 209 primers. I know Richards plug is correctly head spaced. The flame channel is the standard 5/32 hole size. I talked to Richard last night about this because I experienced the same problem with my heavy Douglas barrel M/L I had planned on using if I went to the KY shot. I never had primers bulge like what Richard pictured till I shot them in this Douglas barrel. My standard 73gr load of IMR 4198 with CCI Mags looked good Then I switched to 75grs of 10X with a 300gr SST and a Federal 209A. The first primer looked ok the second one bulged really bad an the third really bulged. So I stopped shooting and went back to the shop to see what the heck was going on because I have shot 75grs of 10X in all my other M/L's with no problems.
I had cut this barrel back so I could replace the Savage style plug and go with a shoulder style plug. I installed a plug I had made for another project gun in this barrel because I didn't feel like making a new plug. I head spaced the plug using my standard .298 aluminum plug this should have worked fine but it didn't in this barrel! So I made a new breech plug and used the same flame channel size and length and the same .030 bushing This time I used a .294 AOL head space plug. Since I only use CCI and Federal primers. This is to short for the longer Win 209 primer. With the new breech plug installed I went back out and tested the gun with the same loads the primers came out as clean as the went in no bulge. There are a few things that can cause the primer to bulge in that area. to much pressure. And to much of the primer sticking out of the breech plug that is not supported and also two much of a bevel on the very beginning of the breech plug. I know Richard likes to use Win 209 primers so I used a .298 head space plug. There might be just enough of the CCI and Federal primer sticking out of the breech plug to cause it to bulge. I really find it hard to believe because I setup all these guns this way and I have never seen a bulged primer till Richard and I experienced it. I blame it on the quality control of the primers.
I have found the quality of the primers I have been checking to be really poor. in diameter and in over all length. They can vary several thousands in length which is hard to compensate for.
You can see the same thing in SRP and LRP they come in different cup sizes and different cup hardness. Some primers will pierce with the same load another primer will not. The 209 system is a solid way to go with a muzzleloader but the Plug has to been really hand fitted to the brand of primmer you plan on using. A lot of people have really struggled with this primer issue. There are no two actions made the exact same length the bolts are all different in length So the idea of buying ready made breech plug that can be easily inter changed is really a myth. You can get lucking once in a while but there are far to many posts about sticking primers to back that statement up.
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Post by bestill458 on Apr 28, 2016 9:13:04 GMT -5
For reference how long is flame channel?
How much primer crush?
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Post by elkman1310 on Apr 28, 2016 14:14:22 GMT -5
Richard I forgot what booster your using when you duplex. I am just wondering if there is a chance that even a small about of powder is actually making its way into the flame channel. That was a problem with Lil gun powder and the vent screw. There is no reason why you should be getting bugled primers except for high pressure exerted onto that primer. Win 209 don't have near the energy as the CCI and Federal. Does it do it with regular loads of IMR 4198. I never shoot duplex .
The flame channel is the same length as a stock Savage plug less the length of the bushing. Same as a Arrow head plug The primer goes into the plug .230 a stock Savage only goes in .190. So .230 is more than enough and the pocket is reamer in two steps most of the way down its .2405 and the last .010 or so is .2395 which seals the nose of the primer. I can post pictures of a ton of fired primers out of numerous guns and they all look good with no bulges or sticking primers. I think there is something going on with the powder your using for your duplex load. Because what you told me on several occasions is your velocity is erratic. That's not caused by the primer or the breech plug.
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Post by schunter on Apr 28, 2016 14:35:25 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see what 4759 or N110 would do as the booster with the new plug???
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2016 18:35:07 GMT -5
If you recall two weeks ago I was complaining that I was getting leakage between the primer and cup in the Shilen? That plug of Luke's had a .031 bushing in it. I replaced it with a .024 bushing I had gotten from Earnhardt some time back. It had quite a few hundred shots thru it (started out .023). Well, the leakage has stopped altogether now and ignition is good with the Winchester primers. So the smaller hole has definitely fixed the problem. Is there a way I can get a .o25 bushing? It something smaller than .o3o? |
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Post by Richard on Apr 28, 2016 21:24:35 GMT -5
I have been shooting Clays as a booster for about 6 lbs. worth. The flakes will NOT (I measured them) go into the bushing. Hey, Winchester primers work just fine? Maybe Fed. and CCI need primer making lessons from Winchester? I did not shoot any singles the other day and never shot a one at the Challenge. I personally don't like they way they sound or act? They also recoil more. I can get the same velocity with 5/66 as straight 73 gr.
Chad........I had gotten that small hole bushing form Earnhardt several years ago to test. Don't know who would have one? Elkman said Luke had some from his supplier that were supposed to be .030 but were .026. Maybe he still has some?
And so far no body can explain why two of three did not bulge and one did? All within 15 fps and two within 2 fps?
I have shot a ton of duplex's and it was not until Elkman wanted me to be able to shoot singles that I started having primer problems?
I fully believe that my duplex loads will shoot equally as good as any single. I had NO problem at the Challenge shooting Winchester primers and I think my results speak for themselves?
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Post by doug136 on Apr 29, 2016 7:43:52 GMT -5
Richard were you the person who originally thought of duplexing ?
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Post by elkman1310 on Apr 29, 2016 8:43:09 GMT -5
Richard there is one thing different about your plug I made you and the one's I use in all the muzzleloaders I build.
I made you a new plug to match your old one as far as the threaded length section that goes into your barrel. The threaded portion of your original plug from Luke had a threaded section about 1.300 inches long Mine are all 1.375. .075 might not sound like a lot but it is. Also I reamed the bushing pocket deep enough so that you could install a .375 long plug your plug you sent me only had a .250 plug. There maybe just enough differences in the design of the plug that your getting these weird examples of pressure. I know for a fact that I have zero problems with my bolt nose setup and breech plug design the Hunter bolt nose and Arrowhead design are not compatible. The Hunter bolt nose it self is ok the firing pin is not and the hole for the firing pin in the bolt nose is way oversize.. That's why I make my own bolt noses and I will only use a PTG XP 100 firing assembly This is the best way to go if you want a 209 system. The other option would be a custom made CF bolt setup for the 209 primer or with Hank's HIS system for LRMP
Also your saying you don't think Clay's could get through a .030 or .035 orifice maybe not a whole flake or kernel put you don't really know what happens when you seat your bullet over top of that powder charge. Even easy loading pressure is about 25lbs to 35 lbs That is enough force to change the characteristics of the Clay's powder. It is no different than coal dust it is extremely combustible that fact that one time the primer comes out clean and the next one bulges is a darn good indicator that something is making its way into that flame channel.
I don't tell any of my customers about duplexing and I have zero reasons to ever duplex any load period. I strong recommend against such a practice and every powder manufacture will tell you the same thing.
Your gun is telling you that it having a problem by bulging the primer. How much force is that putting on that bolt retention screw. I think you should take a look at that screw and see if it has worn flat. Take the firing pin out and put the bolt back in the gun using the same screw see how much end play you have on your bolt. You should have very little. Because I don't think Winchester primers should be fitting into your breech plug as easy as you say they are. So check this out.
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Post by Richard on Apr 30, 2016 8:03:12 GMT -5
I just fitted a new retention screw so it will jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjuuuuussssssssssssssssssst allow the bolt to freely close. The old one had just a slight wear pattern on it, but no more than the one you sent with the action when you did the work. So we will see? I really don't think there is any mitigation of powder into that tiny hole. When I run my bullets down with one hand and they seat on the powder, I give it one tug with no feel of crunching or compression as I get with single powder loads. When it comes to what the FACTORY will allow? If it was up to them, no one would shoot smokeless and you talk about crushing powder? press down on some 4198 on your bench with a bullet and see if you don't produce some crushed kernels? Don't think that is a good analogy Carl.....Sorry? A lot of what we do and what works are opinions? Not trying to be argumentative, but after being around this game a long time, I do have my own opinions. Just look at the low ES's I often get with duplexing? Can't be all that bad? Always value your thoughts but they do not always agree with what I have found? That is what makes this game interesting and challenging.
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curious what it does at 300 and beyond with the Pittman bullets!! 
