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Post by Squeeze on Jul 21, 2015 20:42:26 GMT -5
Have you tried a HIS module with a 209 primer? Is a Rifle primer really a step up? I still use predominantly 209 primers. I havent reloaded anything centerfire in quite a while now, I have frontstuffers that pretty much fill every niche. And a supply of 209s that would probably keep the kids stocked for almost life..  Also, I'm in a smoke only state, so smokeless is just an occasional range fun only. I shoot Blackhorn, mostly in the smokeless and a few others, and various real black and subs in the rest. I really have never seen any problems with W209. But I also dont shoot magnum loads. local ranges are only to 300. Id like to do more longer range, but I have to travel a bit to get a range to shoot farther. Most of my home hunting is almost bow range. |
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Post by hillbill on Jul 22, 2015 19:43:56 GMT -5
I have put together a bunch of 209 guns in my day, I also have a couple of guns with the HIS system.
I will tell you that Jeff's system works very well, if not I wouldn't be using it. I like using a gun with locking lugs and I think his modules work great, so does his plug.
I still however use my 209 guns. my main 209 primers are Winchesters, feds and cci are both out of round and don't seal very well unless headspaced off the primer nose, they are however hotter than Winchesters
would Jeff's modules work well with 209s? Im sure they would but he would have to redesign the module for the larger primer and modify the plug.
The LMRP/209 debate has been hotly debated many many times in the past, the ONLY way to see which does what is to use both in the exact same gun and test each with a variety of loads recording accuracy, velocity and es for each primer.
Jeff has talked about a 209 module but he is very busy like the rest of us just trying to keep up with life and stay in front of his work load.
I have had some 209 guns that shot extremely well but as you can see so do the guns that Jeff builds, its hard to beat a ragged hole group , most cf guns wont do it. Kyle's gun will do it consistently and so will mine if I do my part , so will several others that I have seen, testimony that the HIS system WORKS...
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Post by Hank on Jul 22, 2015 23:19:59 GMT -5
Like Bill said in the above post. The 209 and LRMP debate and came and gone many times wit out a real conclusion. I will say this and I have said it before. I think a rifle primer was designed to ignite large amounts of rifle powder and the 209 was designed to ignite small amounts of shotgun powder. Will they both work,, well it's been prove that they will and both do it well.
I am working on a module that will house the 209 primer and use the same plug configuration so maybe some day soon we will be able to test them side by side from the same gun... Maybe at the next spring shoot as its to late for me to get them ready for this fall shoot.
Only problem I see is it will be harder to install the 209 primer. It's not like installing a LRMP where they sit in a hand held priming tool. You will need some way of installing the primer into the module. Knocking them out should be relatively easy...
I will keep you posted as to when I get them done..
Does anyone have or ever seen published data for the primers as for heat and pressures created when fired?
I have looked but can't find anything conclusive.
Jeff.
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Post by Squeeze on Jul 23, 2015 5:56:14 GMT -5
Just some testing of 209 primers and how fast they push a dryball out of a .32. That is one thing the .32 mountaineer conversion is good for.
these are tests done with the original green mountain .32 on various 209 primers and a patched roundball, no powder.
Shot-Shell Primers
Hottest........Federal 209A..............380 f.p.s.
CCI 209M...................378 f.p.s.
Remington STS..........344 f.p.s.
CCI 209......................338 f.p.s.
Fiocchi........................337 f.p.s.
Winchester 209..........333 f.p.s.
Mildest........Cheddite.....................326 f.p.s.
Muzzleloading Primers
Hottest........CCI 209 In-Line MZL...241 f.p.s.
Fusion 209 In-Line.....236 f.p.s.
Remington ML............234 f.p.s.
Winchester ML............228 f.p.s.
Mildest........Winchester Triple 7....191 f.p.s.
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Post by bakaboy on Jul 26, 2015 14:00:20 GMT -5
If I were buying or building a muzzleloader and I had to use non-smokeless powder, I would use Jeff's HIS, a Remington Ultra, or an Encore modified with an HIS or the PR modules and plug -- in that order. What they all have in common is rifle primers very close to the powder. A 209 close to the powder might work, but like Jeff says, the 209 is made for shotgun pressures. I would also shoot 209Blackhorn in any non-smokeless State because you can and because it is most like smokeless powder.
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Post by bakaboy on Jul 26, 2015 14:06:15 GMT -5
I forgot to Finnish. Yes a HIS system is a step up in my opinion. I have shot many guns using Savage plugs and 209 primers. In all of them I've had to watch loading pressure, and had poof shots because the gun happened to decide I didn't have enough loading pressure. With the HIS system you can intentionally use light loading pressure, and Poof shot are extinct. There are a few exceptions. The Swing lock guns have 209 systems that won't poof on you.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jul 27, 2015 12:35:12 GMT -5
IMO one of the main flaws in the 209 is supporting the primer in most plugs. A module would eliminate this flaw. My ULA is flawless with a 209 because the primer is totally supported in the plug and bolt. My primers never buldge and anvils never back out. The is no gap between the plug and bolt like there is in the Savage style system.
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Also, I'm in a smoke only state, so smokeless is just an occasional range fun only. I shoot Blackhorn, mostly in the smokeless and a few others, and various real black and subs in the rest. I really have never seen any problems with W209. But I also dont shoot magnum loads. local ranges are only to 300. Id like to do more longer range, but I have to travel a bit to get a range to shoot farther. Most of my home hunting is almost bow range.
