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Post by Richard on Jan 28, 2016 11:28:02 GMT -5
I was not going to post this weeks shooting as I did not have the positive results I was hoping for. In lieu of the lack of stuff being posted (probably due to the bad weather in most parts of the country) I thought I would share my just “so-so” results. The day was perfect, no wind, 27* and clear with the heaters going and feeling pretty comfy at about 46 * inside along with Herman and Bill. I used a series of five shots with various bullets and powders to foul the clean barrel. Particularly the last tow shots with a straight dose of I-4198. First up was one of my hollow base 300 gr. SST’s (now weighting 275 gr.) using a “measured load” of 78 gr. IMR-4198 with NO wad shooting at 100 yards. Well, four bullets gave me a .9” with all five in 1.3” Not overly bad considering the alteration? Note the velocity and large ES!!!  Next I took the same bullet out to 300 yards but changed to a duplex I wanted to try-------(10/63 4759/H-4198) hoping for a better ES. Velocity average around 50 fps faster but ES still terrible at 69. Four shots made a 3.3” group with #5 opening it to 5”. So, I am thinking maybe an imbalanced bullet from the alteration? Moving on……………. Next up was the 275 BE with straight 78 gr. IMR-4198 (no wad) (I shot one fouler prior to the group to condition the barrel to the IMR). This load had put three together at 100 yards (.6”) the week I was testing Kyle’s bullets so I wanted to try it at 300. Well, it almost did good with four of the five in 1.6” but shot #3 spoiled it and made it 4.7”? But here again, velocity was 2904 and a whopping 87 fps ES? WTF? So I decided to put a wad under the same combination feeling it might help the ES………….Well, shots one and two were only ONE fps apart and printed less than 2” apart….Great! (note how the group shifted from the one above?----5”+, 4” rt.) Now here comes shot #4, some 31 fps faster and moves way out to the right? Then shots four and five move back into the groups but still with mixed velocities? Average speed here with the wad was 20 fps faster at 2924 but my ES was 73. Four of the five shots printed in 3” with that third shot opening it to 6” ?? Is it the .028 bushing with the Win. 209 primer? Both CCI and FED. Mag primers want to leak and stick on the bolt no so I have shied away from them. I have a .040 bushing I might try with the mag. primers and see if that makes a difference? I will also go back to the Clays duplex and see what happens. Always welcome insights and discussion. BTW There was a good post by Donw68 on Doug’s that made me decide to post this. “Real SML Accuracy” Of coarse there were the token A-hole comments/pictures which, thankfully Edge or some moderator removed (not directed at me but none the less inappropriate ) I PM’d Edge and want to see what he has to say?  screenshot on pc imagur |
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Post by jims on Jan 28, 2016 12:41:44 GMT -5
Those SMLs keep us guessing at times.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 12:55:36 GMT -5
I took a ten day break from social media as part of a fast I did with my church. Our motto this year is drama free year and after my break I'm not so interested in social media as much don't care for all the drama. Doug's seems to be hit or miss with stupid comments and really really getting old. With that said, is your breech plug fouled up? Did the primer pocket expand and did you lose your seal with the primer? Could your bushing be cracked? Did something change from last week? That's weird your es changed like that, maybe with the 300 SST with the exposed base could be leaving deposits of lead in the barrel causing issues??? I know you clean your rifle allot but maybe you should run a bore scope down it and take a look to see what is going on in barrel? |
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Post by schunter on Jan 28, 2016 12:58:51 GMT -5
I think it would be really interesting to see your results with the straight load of I/H4198 with the .040 bushing and with the CCI or Fed primers. Thanks for your testing and reporting... Scott
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Post by mike on Jan 28, 2016 13:20:13 GMT -5
Thanks for your report and data, Richard. I hate it when I think I have it all figured out........and then I learn I don't.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 13:32:03 GMT -5
I appreciate these reports....good or bad. It helps me and others with starting points in load developments and is interesting reading.
Thanks Richard
Steve
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Post by itneverends22 on Jan 28, 2016 15:43:41 GMT -5
Richard,
thank you for your report.
I'm sure you will figure it out..
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Post by Hank on Jan 28, 2016 16:55:41 GMT -5
I'm with schunter, try the .040 bushing just to see if Es get smaller.... Otherwise. Good testing and thanks for the input.
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Post by tnhunter54 on Jan 28, 2016 18:02:18 GMT -5
Thanks Richard, I also appreciate all the time you put in to bring these reports to us.
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Post by donw28 on Jan 28, 2016 18:28:58 GMT -5
Richard--glad to see you posted these results. It can sure get frustrating at times. You know from my posts on the other board that I'm looking for consistent and repeatable accuracy like I get from CF rifles and I'm not seeing it after several years. I actually think there are a number of reasons why multiple 5-10 shot groups don't end well for us compared to 3 shot groups. 1st-I doubt shotgun primers are held to the tolerance of match grade rifle primers. 2d-I know sabots, regardless of manufacture, aren't totally consistent. I can feel the difference sometimes when they go down the barrel. 3) Sabotless--I think the bullets also "spring back" a little different. Again, I sometimes feel a bullet load easier or harder that was sized the same. 4th-Loading pressure. Torque wrenches exist for a reason. I think I use the same pressure but doubt it. Maybe that scale gadget has some merit. 5th-flame channels, at least with 209s, change with each and every shot. Anyway--just some quick thoughts. Today was a perfect example: .45 Encore conversion= 3 shots into 1/2" and then the next 2 open it to almost 1 1/2 at 100 yards. 300WM 10 shots at 400 yards into 2.67 inches. I've never lost an animal with one of these but darn the lack of repeatable accuracy is aggravating.
My next experiment is to load one of my SMLs and shoot it the next day at 100 yards. Reload and shoot again the next range day, etc. till I have 10 rounds on the same target on 10 different days. I can't wait to see the group I get.
Regards,
Don
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 19:00:29 GMT -5
My next experiment is to load one of my SMLs and shoot it the next day at 100 yards. Reload and shoot again the next range day, etc. till I have 10 rounds on the same target on 10 different days. I can't wait to see the group I get. Regards, Don I was just going to suggest this, good luck with your test! |
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Post by Richard on Jan 28, 2016 20:22:11 GMT -5
I looked back in my records where I shot singles with the 250. 275 and 300 BE's and they all showed large ES's.
Chad...........I get my barrel borescope clean. I religiously run a 5/32 drill bit thru the flame channel every week and make sure there is no carbon build up at the bottom of where the primer seats. The is NO leakage around the primer.........NONE, clean as a whistle. Bullets are all sized to pretty much the same dimension whether Parkers, Pittman's or Hornady's. Seating feel the same with all. Powder charges with the singles were scaled just like my match CF loads. The NF 8x32 is rock solid as is the steel Farrel bedded mount and six screws per ring Burris Tacticals.
What I do not see much of listed here when testing is velocities with ES's? I am thinking a larger bushing ...........not quite .040 but more like a .035 and then try the mag primers again? This could be why I consistently do better with the duplex loads. They may not need the extra flame for reliable ignition.
In my past results with the BE's I had gotten some really good results with a 7/65----4759/H-4198 duplex and am going to revisit that load this coming week. If that does not pan out, then the bushing will be next. It just frustrating to get four of five in a decent group and not know why the democrate shows up. I had a problem with my CF mnatch gun's new barrel and the seating depth I was using...........Once I started jamming the 108 Berger's and 107 MK's into the rifling?.............Groups went to bug holes (One's and low 2's) and produced a five shot .766 300 yard group (nice and round) (the only one I shot at that distance since I was out of BOOLETS!)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2016 22:22:21 GMT -5
The only variable that hasn't been addressed is the powder....Are you shaking the can before measuring loads...?
Deadeye had stellar results from a new batch of powder and couldn't figure what improved his groups..... Just a thought...Maybe it is the .028 bushing...but its getting bigger and you have shot groups with low es's with it...
thanks for giving us headaches...I love it....
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Post by chiefkillumdeer on Jan 29, 2016 13:41:47 GMT -5
I am not a competition shooter, but I shoot a lot as a police officer and a precision rifle member (SWAT), but I have always marveled at the inconsistencies of shooting. Like getting two real good groups but they are on opposite sides of the bullseye. I read a really interesting article by a college student that was his thesis for an engineering class. He shot several rifles of varying accuracy's. His conclusion was that it takes like a 50 shot group to really call your accuracy. He concluded that even a known 3" gun can randomly shoot a quarter inch group, it will just be somewhere in the massive group. He also noted that what we call a flier is part of our guns accuracy which is why fliers are not always on the same shot like say shot 5 after a tight four shot group. His final analysis was that we do not shoot large enough groups (and space the time apart between shots, Like days) to form a real conclusion of accuracy. Kind of like driving your vehicle one mile and calling the gas mileage. You need the hills , turns and stops.
After reading this article I just came to expect that some guns will give a more consistent accuracy than others but they all will throw a bullet and thats the best we can hope for in this imperfect science of chucking lead. Wish I could remember where I read the article, It was years ago, but it cut down my expectations and some of my frustration. I go for how consistent is my first cold bore shot from day to day. If it is pretty good me and the weapon are at peace, groups man a lot less to me now. good shootin, nice discussion, If you dont agree with this thats your right, we are Americans and we are a people of opinions. HAHA
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Post by mike on Jan 29, 2016 18:33:43 GMT -5
I am not a competition shooter, but I shoot a lot as a police officer and a precision rifle member (SWAT), but I have always marveled at the inconsistencies of shooting. Like getting two real good groups but they are on opposite sides of the bullseye. I read a really interesting article by a college student that was his thesis for an engineering class. He shot several rifles of varying accuracy's. His conclusion was that it takes like a 50 shot group to really call your accuracy. He concluded that even a known 3" gun can randomly shoot a quarter inch group, it will just be somewhere in the massive group. He also noted that what we call a flier is part of our guns accuracy which is why fliers are not always on the same shot like say shot 5 after a tight four shot group. His final analysis was that we do not shoot large enough groups (and space the time apart between shots, Like days) to form a real conclusion of accuracy. Kind of like driving your vehicle one mile and calling the gas mileage. You need the hills , turns and stops. After reading this article I just came to expect that some guns will give a more consistent accuracy than others but they all will throw a bullet and thats the best we can hope for in this imperfect science of chucking lead. Wish I could remember where I read the article, It was years ago, but it cut down my expectations and some of my frustration. I go for how consistent is my first cold bore shot from day to day. If it is pretty good me and the weapon are at peace, groups man a lot less to me now. good shootin, nice discussion, If you dont agree with this thats your right, we are Americans and we are a people of opinions. HAHA Hahaha, you are so correct, chiefkillumdeer. I have been so frustrated during my life when scoping, sighting in new rifles and just recreationally trying to shoot to learn how accurate my hardware is. Like you said, I get all happy with a nice tight group of three or five shots and then I fall into confusion when my very next group sometimes appears in a different location from the previous or opens up two or three times center to center! I wonder what would happen with a high quality barreled action bolted into a rock solid machine rest, servo controlled trigger, fired in an indoor range with absolute control of temperature, no wind, humidity, altitude and barometric pressure? Of course still have the slight variables of bullet form consistency, powder batch and compaction; primer batch, barrel fouling and whatever other voodoo that is involved. The guys who shoot competitively have to worry about all this stuff. A guy like me who shoots for fun and goes hunting a couple times a year, if I'm lucky, shouldn't get too concerned about shooting 1/4" moa. And to top it off this past Thanksgiving week: A giant buck in full afterburner rockets up the side of the mountain where I'm sitting 25 feet up in a swaying tree stand. At 80 yards from me the buck is about to intersect the only hole in the woods where I can possibly send a 130 gr Nosler from my proven 1/2" moa Cooper .270 Win. I actually stop the buck in that exact hole and...........rush the shot because I'm worried the buck is about to continue on his way, slap the trigger like a trap shooter and I watch the buck bolt off untouched! I have absolutely no idea where my bullet went even after three of us searched an hour and a half for sign of blood, hair, nicked tree branches, etc. Talking about the agony of defeat! All I had to do was offhand a shot into an 80 yard long 12" diameter clear cylinder of air and I couldn't get it done. So, as many have already said, for most of us, what does it matter that our rifles don't shoot one-hole groups. For next years hunting season I need to figure out how to hoist a 4" thick concrete shooting table, Sinclair competition rest and Edgewood bag into my Summit Viper climbing tree stand! lol |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2016 21:23:57 GMT -5
Maybe the colder temps coupled with the .028 bushing is the culprit. I know that my 209 gun shoots better with a .035 bushing. The problem is that with heavy loads sabotless and a .035 bushing, primer bulging can become an issue. That is where Jeff's system shines. Large vent, hot primer, short flame channel and no chance of a bulged primer.
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Post by Richard on Jan 30, 2016 11:37:20 GMT -5
Since I shoot from inside where the temperature in generally in the upper 40's even with teens and 20's outside, I kind of eliminate the weather factor. The .028 bushing may be the culprit as the straight powder charges probably need more "fire". I am working on getting the .035 bushing and will see. This is probably why I get my better results when duplexing with boosters like Clays or RD.
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Post by jims on Jan 30, 2016 12:42:05 GMT -5
I have the .035 bushing in two of my SMLs. Have not shot them yet. Will follow your results with interest however I pretty much duplex all loads now and I do not shoot the heavy loads like some.
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