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Post by keith on Jan 20, 2016 16:19:04 GMT -5
Out west in canyon country, 400 plus yards are common, as you simply cannot get on the same side of a hill an elk or coues whitetail is on in brush 6' tall. It always amazes me the statements made by people who have not been here. I always get as close as I can, but I've had to shoot 500 yards, as I was directly across the canyon from a deer I wanted, I shot it cleanly. I practice out to 400 yards with my muzzleloaders and 800 yarss with my 300 RUMs. We took an elk at 350 yards this year with one of my muzzleloaders, one shot. You can be an unethical long range or short range hunter? I shoot year round like most of you guys probably, and last year I shot over 1000 Parker Match Hunters and Lukes 310 gr in 6 different muzzleloaders. I would say keep your opinions about whats ethical to youself and tell me about what you do, not what you think I should do, Ray Ray, I agree with you that there are places that are most certainly going to push things out at times. I've seen where you hunt. I grew up hunting big country; right down the road from where Accuracy 1st runs their courses. Like we were talking about a week or so back, when I finally am at a point in my life where I can use my PP's I will pull a tag I want in CO or WY I know I will have longer opportunities. I've seen some elk while hiking up on the Mogollon that would really tempt me to shoot long if all I had between us was thin air and opportunity. When I originally set my personal rule I was in the TX panhandle before I did a lot of LR shooting and back then there were not a lot of optics geared for LR work and I was not good enough to shoot in that wind. I shot a .300 Wby Mag at the time and 400yds was about as far as I could shoot while holding on hair using a 300yds zero. Kahles came out with the TDS a year later and it helped me a lot but I still was not super proficient so I stuck with 400yds as my rule. It's for me, nobody else. Years and thousands of rounds later I am in pretty good shape with a rifle. Like you, my SML will hammer to 500yds (haven't shot it further). Your 300 RUM is a monster too and makes that type of shooting pretty manageable. I have a 7mm with 162-180gns that makes LR work pretty clean. I'm in a better position to stretch things now but not in a location that forces it. I don't think its wise to say never because I've done things I never thought I would in my life. Sorry if you thought I was condemning it because some are very capable. None of it is voodoo magic but does take a lot of invested time and effort as you know. I was just stating, in response to Richard's comment, that over a decade of working in the hunting/shooting world I saw a lot who absolutely cannot shoot at all; they can make a gun go bang (not always safely) but they cannot shoot accurately. Like you said, they are just as capable of being unethical short range hunters. I've said it before and stand by it, there should be a shooting test for licenses like in Scandinavia or like some of the NWR hunts do for archery hunts in the Estados Unitos. I had to shoot in for an archery hunt on the Hagerman. Has nothing to do with MoA but two years ago we had a guy killed here when two guys shot at the "deer" which then ducked down and wouldn't move so made for an easy second shot. States would still make money by running the testing and it would put some onus on the hunter to ensure proficiency in discretion and marksmanship. I know most would howl about it but I don't think its a terrible idea. You have to shoot to get a concealed carry license. |
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Post by chiefkillumdeer on Feb 4, 2016 11:31:20 GMT -5
Go to Snipers Hide or Sniper Central forums. These cats shoot at 0-2500 yrds. You will learn all you could ever want to know if you read enough and ask questions. Easiest method is to actually shoot your rifle at every 25 yrd increment from 200 yrds to the max distance you want it. Record only groups that center around your bull. This will take into account any deviation that your own scope has in adjustments. You also will not be relying on someones estimated BC of a bullet and velocity. Bottom line your gun will hit where it will hit no matter what a ballistic calculator tells you. Now armed with this information you can take white medical tape wrapped around your turret and make your own, dead on ballistic turrets (assuming your scope is repeatable ). Then shoot in all kinds of weather and start learning that wind drift estimation is the holy grail of any good long range shooter. Good luck.
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Post by keith on Feb 4, 2016 17:08:00 GMT -5
Go to Snipers Hide or Sniper Central forums. These cats shoot at 0-2500 yrds. You will learn all you could ever want to know if you read enough and ask questions. Easiest method is to actually shoot your rifle at every 25 yrd increment from 200 yrds to the max distance you want it. Record only groups that center around your bull. This will take into account any deviation that your own scope has in adjustments. You also will not be relying on someones estimated BC of a bullet and velocity. Bottom line your gun will hit where it will hit no matter what a ballistic calculator tells you. Now armed with this information you can take white medical tape wrapped around your turret and make your own, dead on ballistic turrets (assuming your scope is repeatable ). Then shoot in all kinds of weather and start learning that wind drift estimation is the holy grail of any good long range shooter. Good luck. We were talking about this the other day at work, most of us stay off those forums unless we need a laugh. There are a few really knowledgeable guys on the Hide but like most forums there are more information seekers and enthusiasts than guys who are really on top of it. Sniper Central had a week ago or so (as told to me by a guy who saw it) a thread started (and killed in a matter or hours) about some sensitive information that never should have made it to the internet over some testing we did a while back. I'm not on SC but if I had to guess, I could narrow it down to two guys and neither should have been part of the testing. There are very few snipers on either site and not all snipers are created equal. There are also very few dudes or places where there is a lot of ELR shooting; terrain doesn't support it and it requires some really specialized equipment to do it well. The deviation in your scope is best done with a tall target test at 100yds/m because the further out you go the less you can control. Drop is deterministic and can be calculated if you know your BC. I think the fact that we don't KNOW the BC of any bullet we use here is probably what you are driving at and that does mean that your ballistic solver will not give you good data: garbage in, garbage out. That's where your tape BDC comes in (or just a data card) and more importantly the tall target test because if you didn't do it you may not have gotten good data to begin with (I had a Leupold Mark4 a while back that by the time I had dialed on 17.5MoA it was giving me 2 extra minutes and this happens more than Leupold would like to admit). You are right about wind. It is non-determinstic and the most difficult part of LR shooting (which can be as close at 300yds when you are shooting a Ballistic Extreme/XTP/etc with a BC like a wiffle ball). We have seen several accounts lately where wind was overestimated (as it usually is) and would have given bad data if used to counterbalance drops to calculate BC. |
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Post by chiefkillumdeer on Feb 4, 2016 20:11:56 GMT -5
Keith, it has been a while since I've been on the hide sites. Maybe it has been watered down with I just bought a lapua guys. It used to have some good info. BC of any bullet changes with velocity so it is not a constant figure. The method I mentioned above is just a true way for a starter guy to get out past ranges they normally would have shot without getting too technical. it also forces you to actually shoot your gun, and hopefully in the mean time teach you repetitiveness and your own limitations. Always amazes me when I take certain guys out for a long range shoot how long it takes them to figure out actual predominate wind direction much less make a darn good wind speed call. In the real world their target better be static and also allow for a few missed shots or its walking away unscathed. It also amazes me how many guys have not figured out MOA but want you to explain Mils in 30 seconds or less. If a guy really wants to learn I recommend Todd Hodgnets long range shooting videos. Watch them about 20 times. Do the math. When you can hammer it out on a calculator, go hammer the steel. Good shooting guys.
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Post by keith on Feb 5, 2016 5:45:47 GMT -5
BC's are banded but every bullet is different in regard to decay. Some profiles have much higher drag than others. Some have relatively consistent BC that only varies by .02 or so every 1000fps, some more, some less. Either way you can pretty much bet on using one number until you are just this side of transonic; reference your HODNETT video for his take on truing or reference a AB drag model.
MoA vs MRAD is largely a familiarity issue. Explaining MRAD in 30 seconds to a Continental European would be a snap because they grew up with the metric system. Most Americans are metric illiterate. As discussed, most guys think MoA is 1" so they don't exactly have that nailed down anyway. I also think MRAD is easier than MoA based on math alone: 1/1000 of your linear distance (an arc radian being one where the arc length is equal to the radius and mil meaning 1000) vice 1/60 as angle theta in a trig function.
Math for wind is easier in MRAD too. For MoA you need a calculator or you need a multi-step approach like the Hoffman formula. Accuracy 1st short and long wind can be done in your head. You just have to be able to judge wind for either to work.
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Post by chiefkillumdeer on Feb 5, 2016 7:52:45 GMT -5
agreed.
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Post by dannoboone on Feb 5, 2016 16:16:00 GMT -5
Yup, Flagman, totally agree. Growing up in western Nebraska, hunting P-dogs all summer
at various ranges and cross winds with a .25-06 made for a relatively easy shot on a
deer at 400yds.
On the other hand, I know a muzzle loader hunter who would be making an unethical
shot anything beyond much over 50yds. He refuses to practice beyond that! He refuses
to shoot more than 3, yes THREE, practice shots at a paper plate @ 50yds just before
season!
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