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Post by keith on Jan 17, 2016 21:41:05 GMT -5
Keith, you are absolutely correct in what you are writing. One question from this newbie: what does the acronym "IPHY" stand for? IPHY = Inches Per Hundred Yards There are scopes where the dials are "1 click = 1/4 inch" not "1 click = .25 MIN/MOA". That's why I say you have to know the difference. It is not as common as it once was and any decent LR scope today will be in MoA or MRAD.
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Post by flagman on Jan 17, 2016 22:35:49 GMT -5
So where does a person like myself learn to actually dial up on a scope like you guys are talking? I've always been the type of guy to "holdover" a target at long range, but would love to learn to be more accurate Keith can correct me, but starting with given bullet ballistic coefficient, known muzzle velocity, elevation, humidity: plug these into a ballistic calculator,(there are several free ones for your phone or computer) and then take the value at a given distance and go shoot to verify, adjust your scope accordingly to determine the number of clicks to get the value you need to be zeroed at that distance. Bestill here uses the adjustable turrets and informed me that the bc of the 327 Match Hunters was .42 not the advertised .452 at his velocity and elevation. Shooting the same velocity and using the .42 bc, I shot the match hunters at 375 yards, which is a specific holdover line on my Varmint reticle, and I was dead center. Shooting to proof or verify is very necessary. Along the same train of thought, Leupold on their Varmint Reticle scope shows the 400 yard moa at 4.13 but the actual value is17.3", (4.13x1.047x4=17.3"), not 4x4.13=I6.39, what I assumed it to be, only a difference of .91", but to competition shooters or small animal, it could be important? I called them several years ago to get the explanation. I called Nightforce on this same subject, as I have a NXS High Velocity hold over reticle in a scope and they said no don't multiply the value, so I guess they have done it for you, trouble is, on my muzzleloaders I use those holdovers for different ranges than they show them for, so I 'll have to back out the value and recalculate for my distance, and then shoot to verify. Its only math and time on the range, Ray
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Post by Richard on Jan 17, 2016 22:38:03 GMT -5
Anybody who is going to attempt to shoot a deer at 600 yards based on the information on an ammo box should not be in the woods in the first place! The only real way to know where your bullet combination is hitting at XXXX distance, is to actually shoot it at that distance. Ballistic tables might put you in the right church but you could end up in the wrong phew! The variances in the bullet, barrel, elevation, powder lot .........you name it, and you are missing that deer or wounding it. You need to build your own "come up" chart to match your set up and even that can be tenuous at that distance with unknown wind conditions. For me, in the benchrest game from 100 to 1,000 yards everything is measured in inches..........and yes, I understand the military uses MOA. Science and medical use metric. I happen to be comfortable with inches and pounds
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Post by keith on Jan 17, 2016 23:21:00 GMT -5
You'd be amazed what wanders into the woods with a gun and what they are willing to attempt with a living creature's life. I was always horrified by what I saw pre-deer-season when I worked at the Gunshop; lots of guns go hunting with a minute of pie plate shooter/gun/ammo combo. I was equally horrified by tales of woe when they brought guns in to figure out why they missed a shot (or wounded) they should not have taken.
I don't think anyone in the military works in MoA unless they are using older optics. It's all mils and meters now.
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Post by schunter on Jan 18, 2016 10:05:34 GMT -5
Ahh yes the pie plate crowd. Seen tons of those guys at the public range. I had a guy in my club one time texting me asking me for the number of clicks he should come up for a 500 yard shot while he was hunting and the deer was standing there feeding. I told him I have no idea, I know he has never shot his gun past 100 yds. I just don't get it!
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Post by shane on Jan 18, 2016 10:25:49 GMT -5
While all these guys worry about a lot of math, And number of clicks, ect..... I range it, dial it up on my Kenton Industries Ballistic dial and BLAMO!!! Its a wast of time while hunting. Your target most likely has moved on. JMO
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Post by keith on Jan 18, 2016 10:54:36 GMT -5
All my math is done before I ever walk out the door and adjusted before I get up off my backpack if I know conditions have changed. If you look at my left forearm you will see a data card that gets me to 1100yds. I can calculate wind in my head in about 10 seconds or less. In both those stages we ranged and shot 8-10 targets in under 4 min combined.
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Post by jaymiller5 on Jan 18, 2016 19:27:38 GMT -5
While all these guys worry about a lot of math, And number of clicks, ect..... I range it, dial it up on my Kenton Industries Ballistic dial and BLAMO!!! Its a wast of time while hunting. Your target most likely has moved on. JMO Yup, someone else did the math and gave calculated turrets is all. For hunting applications, i tell all my buddies to do this shortcut of getting custom built turrets to remove confusion and to help with limiting the possibility of wounding an animal. It doesn't help as much with wind but they do offer windage turrets for a little more. Honestly, my hunting rifle has them but i also have my range card for my hunting locations before going out given environmental details matter as does hot ammo vs cold.
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Post by shane on Jan 19, 2016 2:52:17 GMT -5
I agree with all statements above. For real world hunting scenarios, 99.9% Of guys have no business setting off a round past 350 yards. (Myself Included) Most rifles are beyond their MPBR and The chances of wounding go way up. For Matches and Competition, its a different Story. Or perhaps an Elk sized Target out to 500+ but You still gotta have a stable shooting platform.
Wish i had more time to learn to Shoot like Keith and others. Very Impressive. Keep the Posts coming. I enjoy reading everyones input. Shane
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beans
Full Member
Posts: 248
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Post by beans on Jan 19, 2016 6:14:55 GMT -5
I agree that for many of us that are very skillfull shooters and hunters we are splitting hairs unless shooting past 300 yds. However, the person who knows this stuff inside out like Keith, is a hell of a resource and it's obvious he knows what he is talking about. AND, he answered the original question correctly.
So many people out there go out with the best of the best guns/accesories and have no idea what they are doing or why they are doing it. Saw it on TV or read it in a magazine. I would love to work at a gun shop in my mind. But I think that would soon come to an end after the majority of customers that are dealt with come in and show off their lack of knowledge and go out the door and shoot up the woods and wound deer. You would like to think you could teach them something from behind the counter but it would be fruitless to try. You would have to undo years of what they think they know and there's a guy waiting in line behind him. I always get frustrated when I go into a large big box store and ask for something I can't find. The alternative advise I get boarders being offensive. These people know absolutely nothing and these are the people that help lead other people into what they are buying and what they think they are capable of.
Very sad
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Post by Hank on Jan 19, 2016 8:22:14 GMT -5
So where does a person like myself learn to actually dial up on a scope like you guys are talking? I've always been the type of guy to "holdover" a target at long range, but would love to learn to be more accurate Attend "The Kentucky Challenge" and you will learn to shoot more accurately. Most of us at the shoot will use our turrets and dial up for every shot over 100 yards. Once you have your load data figured out and you a settled on that, then you should proof your shooting at every distance you plan on having shot opportunities and record the drop. Make yourself a drop chart and attach it to you scope. When the (target) presents itself at 400 yards all you need to do is range it.. Look at your proven drop chart, make the adjustment and then make your shot.. All this should be done very quickly as your target is most likely moving and a few yards off on distance will result in inches off your mark. The farther your target the more precise you need to be with your yardage. When you're out hunting you should never even need to think about MOA or how to figure your drop at 600 yards................ If you haven't practiced the shot then you shouldn't take that shot..
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Post by keith on Jan 19, 2016 8:56:16 GMT -5
For real world hunting scenarios, 99.9% Of guys have no business setting off a round past 350 yards. (Myself Included) That includes myself. My personal rule is 400yds and wind under 10mph if we are talking about animals. That said, I have never shot a deer past about 250yds. I grew up hunting the Texas hill country and panhandle and both have enough terrain to allow you to get close enough for sure shooting. I've been on the east coast since 2002 now and I would say most of the shots I could have taken here were under 200yds also. In general you have to set the conditions to shoot long. The other side of this is that it depends on what tickles you. Some guys are into long range hunting. Some are into trophy hunting. Some are just into hunting. It is hard to be a dedicated trophy hunter and set up for intentional long range shots also. I'm not saying a LR hunter can't kill good animals but guys who pay big money to kill big animals usually want a good look at them and your outfitter usually requires it also to ensure you are meeting their standard. Or in the case of animals like sheep, their are legal considerations you may not resolve with a spotting scope from 900yds. You usually pick what is more important to you. I just enjoy hunting and I spend all my time here still hunting so it is close. Back home I do a lot of spot and stalk which has always allowed for relatively close shots considering the terrain. My hunting style and personal desires keep me from shooting long range while hunting. Oddly enough, I have gotten to where I rarely kill anything. I carry a gun or bow but I'm largely there to observe.
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Post by speedrackin on Jan 19, 2016 9:46:25 GMT -5
Never having played with a turret type scope this will be interesting , I've always just used mill dot type scopes and marked my bullet drop as i shot specific distances or used the fine hair heavy hair concept on duplex optics . So know its just something else to decide on in my decision for a scope .
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Post by donw28 on Jan 19, 2016 15:02:32 GMT -5
49 years of hunting and my longest shot ever on an animal is 267 yards. I can also say I've never personally watched a "long range hunting" video where the hunter/shooter couldn't have easily closed the distance. I love to shoot long range but there is no such thing as too close when hunting. Last bull elk I killed with a rifle was at 24 yards and the speed goats that everyone loves to poke at long range a measly 178 yards. And Keith is absolutely right on animals like sheep that have to be judged legal. Most long range shooting at animals seems to be where there is a low cost and abundant animal where if you miss/wound it is not a big deal to the shooter. I pointed out to a gentleman last year that you don't see 1000 yard pokes at a leopard with a $5,000 trophy fee where you have a legal responsibility to follow up your shot and will get your ass kicked if it is still alive on videos. Practice long and then hunt responsibly.
Don
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Post by mike on Jan 19, 2016 15:09:44 GMT -5
I agree with all statements above. For real world hunting scenarios, 99.9% Of guys have no business setting off a round past 350 yards. (Myself Included) Most rifles are beyond their MPBR and The chances of wounding go way up. For Matches and Competition, its a different Story. Or perhaps an Elk sized Target out to 500+ but You still gotta have a stable shooting platform. Wish i had more time to learn to Shoot like Keith and others. Very Impressive. Keep the Posts coming. I enjoy reading everyones input. Shane shane, Sorry to yet again demonstrate my lack of knowledge pertaining to shooting terminology, but what does the acronym "MPBR" stand for? Thank you.
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Post by Hank on Jan 19, 2016 15:21:10 GMT -5
Maximum point blank range.
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Post by deadeye on Jan 19, 2016 15:58:35 GMT -5
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Post by mike on Jan 19, 2016 16:51:38 GMT -5
Thanks for the definition, Jeff.
And deadeye, thanks for the link to the very cool ballistic calculator and definition page. Great information for this newbie.
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Post by flagman on Jan 19, 2016 22:21:58 GMT -5
Out west in canyon country, 400 plus yards are common, as you simply cannot get on the same side of a hill an elk or coues whitetail is on in brush 6' tall. It always amazes me the statements made by people who have not been here. I always get as close as I can, but I've had to shoot 500 yards, as I was directly across the canyon from a deer I wanted, I shot it cleanly. I practice out to 400 yards with my muzzleloaders and 800 yarss with my 300 RUMs. We took an elk at 350 yards this year with one of my muzzleloaders, one shot. You can be an unethical long range or short range hunter? I shoot year round like most of you guys probably, and last year I shot over 1000 Parker Match Hunters and Lukes 310 gr in 6 different muzzleloaders. I would say keep your opinions about whats ethical to youself and tell me about what you do, not what you think I should do, Ray
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Post by Hank on Jan 19, 2016 22:42:41 GMT -5
+ 1 Ray... What's a long range shot for one night not be so long for the next guy..
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