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Post by curiousdave on May 14, 2023 6:47:42 GMT -5
I currently shoot a CVA Scout conversion using HIS and have a powder chamber that takes about 45 grains of I4198 to fill. I'm currently considering a new build and wonder if having a powder chamber at all has any advantages? I've poured through many posts and have not found this answer although of course it could be out there! Is there a disadvantage to having NO powder chamber for a smokeless? The inline smokers I have don't have one?
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Post by ballistic on May 14, 2023 9:21:23 GMT -5
This is my opinion on the powder chamber
Pros
1- you can cut the top 1/2 of a .45 brush and brush from the muzzle and back out. Breech plug doesn’t need to be removed. Brushing has proven for many to work as bore prep for the next shooting session -instead of full cleans.
For me brushing works best followed by 1 clean patch. And now I’ve found a brushing routine that no longer needs to be patched.
2-slower powders burn cleaner with a chamber so you can get more shots without cleaning.
3- pressures will be lower with a chamber so some extra speed can be gained.
Cons
1-Patching from the muzzle end can result in patches getting stuck/falling into the chamber area. When this happens the breech plug often needs to be removed. Sometimes a patch puller or a smaller caliber brush will pull them out. I mark my ramrod and have still pushed patches into the chamber. I try to stop the patch an inch before the chamber and mess up sometimes.
2- You absolutely need to know where your bullet to powder will rest in the barrel. You don’t want your bullet 3/4 of the way in the chamber- this could lead to a dangerous spike in pressure or worse.
I would PM Hillbill if you want chamber/powder size dimensions. I have some math as well for depths but Hillbill is your best bet.
Personally - everything I have going forward will have a powder chamber - choosing the correct size will yield lower pressures with higher velocities. Your barrel will be cleaner with a chamber. Brushing is the best bore prep -not complete cleans -my opinion. Exercise good judgment when cutting the chamber. If you go too big -it will be an expensive fix and not recommended.
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Post by buckeye68 on May 14, 2023 14:28:15 GMT -5
I would never build a SML without one.
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Post by yoderjac on May 14, 2023 15:08:15 GMT -5
I would never build a SML without one. I'm pretty new to SMLs. I'd like to hear the "why" behind both sides of this question. |
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Post by hillbill on May 14, 2023 15:40:09 GMT -5
This is a loaded question.
A few short years ago practically no one here machined in a powder chamber on purpose, most all builds were .45 caliber.
Most bored past the plug enough to be sure the tap was in the clear, that was it, the result was a chamber of sorts of varying degree but not anything purposeful.
Along came guns like Cyclops and some big .40s shooting huge doses of slow powders, these were the driving force behind the chamber craze, especially in the .40 caliber or smaller bore.
Is a chamber more efficient? Yep, sure is and it can pay big dividends in a smaller bore like ballistic is shooting.
It can also mean the difference between a clean burning charge and not so clean in a .45.
In a .45 unless you are pushing heavy bullets with a very slow powder I see no practical purpose in machining in a chamber past .750 or so past plug depth, some will disagree but I have seen many guns with no chamber shoot some amazing groups, keep in mind almost all builds have a chamber of sorts just to keep the tap out of the rifled bore, that is if a tap was used.
In a .40 or smaller a chamber is of far greater benefit, the .408 bore requires much more real estate in the bore for a given charge than the .45 does eating up burning space for the charge.
A chamber is a double edge sword, once you cut it in there is no going back and shooting a lesser charge without more machining on the barrel.
IF you have a specific load you are set on, yes one can purpose build a chamber for that load, some including me have done that with great success.
Much depends on what you want to do with your gun, myself with the average .45 build I end up with about a 60 grain chamber depending on powder used but I also know I will never shoot a load with less volume than that.
Much has been discussed about the smallish chamber left in the break action guns after converting, I think this is where most of this discussion has started from.
chambers can be of benefit, do we all need them? I don't think so.
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Post by curiousdave on May 14, 2023 16:35:05 GMT -5
Excellent answers ballistic and hillbill. Thank you!
Is the diameter of the powder chamber based on the tap drill diameter for the breech plug thread, or some other specific dimension based on the caliber?
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Post by lbahunter on May 14, 2023 18:42:02 GMT -5
This is a loaded question. A few short years ago practically no one here machined in a powder chamber on purpose, most all builds were .45 caliber. Most bored past the plug enough to be sure the tap was in the clear, that was it, the result was a chamber of sorts of varying degree but not anything purposeful. Along came guns like Cyclops and some big .40s shooting huge doses of slow powders, these were the driving force behind the chamber craze, especially in the .40 caliber or smaller bore. Is a chamber more efficient? Yep, sure is and it can pay big dividends in a smaller bore like ballistic is shooting. It can also mean the difference between a clean burning charge and not so clean in a .45. In a .45 unless you are pushing heavy bullets with a very slow powder I see no practical purpose in machining in a chamber past .750 or so past plug depth, some will disagree but I have seen many guns with no chamber shoot some amazing groups, keep in mind almost all builds have a chamber of sorts just to keep the tap out of the rifled bore, that is if a tap was used. In a .40 or smaller a chamber is of far greater benefit, the .408 bore requires much more real estate in the bore for a given charge than the .45 does eating up burning space for the charge. A chamber is a double edge sword, once you cut it in there is no going back and shooting a lesser charge without more machining on the barrel. IF you have a specific load you are set on, yes one can purpose build a chamber for that load, some including me have done that with great success. Much depends on what you want to do with your gun, myself with the average .45 build I end up with about a 60 grain chamber depending on powder used but I also know I will never shoot a load with less volume than that. Much has been discussed about the smallish chamber left in the break action guns after converting, I think this is where most of this discussion has started from. chambers can be of benefit, do we all need them? I don't think so. I went the opposite direction as everyone else when I had my conversion done. My objective was simple, a </= 150 yard low recoil deer killing gun. My black blue Scout is set up for the lighter sabot loads. It has the longer DI plug from Hankins. It takes most of the 45-70 chamber out. I have a very small powder chamber. I wanted to shoot the faster powders like N110. I shoot bullets mainly from 180gr to 225gr. I tried sabotless but I prefer to shoot a saboted 40 cal 180 - 225gr bullet with N110 than a sabotless 45 cal 250 - 275gr bullet with 4198. That's the great thing about these conversions, versatility. You can set it up about any way you want it but there is limitations. I measured my plug with a DI module installed. The plug with the module measures 1.905. If the original 45/70 chamber is 2.105, I should have around a .200 powder chamber. |
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Post by curiousdave on May 14, 2023 18:58:36 GMT -5
Thanks Ibahunter. How many grains of N110 minimum and maximum do you use with saboted 180gr to 225gr if you don't mind telling? I've found some 175gr Barnes copper 40 cals called Red Hots that fit well with Harvestor light blue sabots. I know I can't use N110 in my current scout because of the powder chamber but I have another Scout not yet converted.
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Post by buckeye68 on May 14, 2023 19:29:21 GMT -5
I would never build a SML without one. I'm pretty new to SMLs. I'd like to hear the "why" behind both sides of this question. I can’t say it any better than it’s already been said. |
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Post by lbahunter on May 14, 2023 21:22:00 GMT -5
Thanks Ibahunter. How many grains of N110 minimum and maximum do you use with saboted 180gr to 225gr if you don't mind telling? I've found some 175gr Barnes copper 40 cals called Red Hots that fit well with Harvestor light blue sabots. I know I can't use N110 in my current scout because of the powder chamber but I have another Scout not yet converted. When you get yours built you will have to check it for the minimum grains. Mine is in the midish 20s but yours will probably be different. I know that I will never go that low in grains. My max is different with different bullet weights. I use a Eastern Maine wool wads to protect the sabot. I started at 28 grains and worked up with different bullet weights. You will probably want to do the same. Start above your minimum grains and work up to your maximum. Usually in the mid to low 30s, I can swap bullet weights with no problem. I hunted with a resized Barnes 41mag 180gr, lightly knurled, in a HLBS with a Maine wool wad with my max load of N110. |
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Post by lbahunter on May 15, 2023 9:45:42 GMT -5
This is a loaded question. A few short years ago practically no one here machined in a powder chamber on purpose, most all builds were .45 caliber. Most bored past the plug enough to be sure the tap was in the clear, that was it, the result was a chamber of sorts of varying degree but not anything purposeful. Along came guns like Cyclops and some big .40s shooting huge doses of slow powders, these were the driving force behind the chamber craze, especially in the .40 caliber or smaller bore. Is a chamber more efficient? Yep, sure is and it can pay big dividends in a smaller bore like ballistic is shooting. It can also mean the difference between a clean burning charge and not so clean in a .45. In a .45 unless you are pushing heavy bullets with a very slow powder I see no practical purpose in machining in a chamber past .750 or so past plug depth, some will disagree but I have seen many guns with no chamber shoot some amazing groups, keep in mind almost all builds have a chamber of sorts just to keep the tap out of the rifled bore, that is if a tap was used. In a .40 or smaller a chamber is of far greater benefit, the .408 bore requires much more real estate in the bore for a given charge than the .45 does eating up burning space for the charge. A chamber is a double edge sword, once you cut it in there is no going back and shooting a lesser charge without more machining on the barrel. IF you have a specific load you are set on, yes one can purpose build a chamber for that load, some including me have done that with great success. Much depends on what you want to do with your gun, myself with the average .45 build I end up with about a 60 grain chamber depending on powder used but I also know I will never shoot a load with less volume than that. Much has been discussed about the smallish chamber left in the break action guns after converting, I think this is where most of this discussion has started from. chambers can be of benefit, do we all need them? I don't think so. well said...... |
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Post by lbahunter on May 15, 2023 21:22:24 GMT -5
I currently shoot a CVA Scout conversion using HIS and have a powder chamber that takes about 45 grains of I4198 to fill. I'm currently considering a new build and wonder if having a powder chamber at all has any advantages? I've poured through many posts and have not found this answer although of course it could be out there! Is there a disadvantage to having NO powder chamber for a smokeless? The inline smokers I have don't have one? Are you going to have another Scout converted? |
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Post by curiousdave on May 16, 2023 8:31:38 GMT -5
I haven't decided yet Ibahunter I did the first conversion on a stainless 45-70 Scout myself using Hank's HIS plug for break actions. I have the lathes etc and a machinist background. I also own a second Scout 45-70 in Camo that I have dressed up and sighted in with copper ammo. I think I will leave that one alone and if I decide to do the long breech plug for the smaller powder chamber may pick up a Blued/Black Scout. I have also considered building a 40 cal on a Rem 700 type action. I'm just starting out on this smokeless adventure and there are lots of ways to skin this cat. Most of my hunting in Wisconsin is in the woods but having a long range option for field shooting does appeal to me as well. I'm enjoying the learning on this board and am very appreciative of all the people giving of their time and experience to help out others.
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Post by curiousdave on May 16, 2023 8:32:45 GMT -5
I haven't decided yet Ibahunter I did the first conversion on a stainless 45-70 Scout myself using Hank's HIS plug for break actions. I have the lathes etc and a machinist background. I also own a second Scout 45-70 in Camo that I have dressed up and sighted in with copper ammo. I think I will leave that one alone and if I decide to do the long breech plug for the smaller powder chamber may pick up a Blued/Black Scout. I have also considered building a 40 cal on a Rem 700 type action. I'm just starting out on this smokeless adventure and there are lots of ways to skin this cat. Most of my hunting in Wisconsin is in the woods but having a long range option for field shooting does appeal to me as well. I'm enjoying the learning on this board and am very appreciative of all the people giving of their time and experience to help out others. Attachments:
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Post by lbahunter on May 16, 2023 8:38:40 GMT -5
I haven't decided yet Ibahunter I did the first conversion on a stainless 45-70 Scout myself using Hank's HIS plug for break actions. I have the lathes etc and a machinist background. I also own a second Scout 45-70 in Camo that I have dressed up and sighted in with copper ammo. I think I will leave that one alone and if I decide to do the long breech plug for the smaller powder chamber may pick up a Blued/Black Scout. I have also considered building a 40 cal on a Rem 700 type action. I'm just starting out on this smokeless adventure and there are lots of ways to skin this cat. Most of my hunting in Wisconsin is in the woods but having a long range option for field shooting does appeal to me as well. I'm enjoying the learning on this board and am very appreciative of all the people giving of their time and experience to help out others. Nice!!!! This board and others have help me tremendously...... |
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