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Post by james72 on Apr 30, 2023 18:01:45 GMT -5
I know this subject has been discussed in previous threads, but I wanted to share my experience so there is a recent thread available for new members to read and more experienced members to comment on.
I recently bought a CVA Scout from Jeff and have been shooting smooth sized 45 caliber bullets (275 grain Pittman and Fury), 60-65g 4198, and HIS. Long story short – I’ve had problems that are caused by my barrel being choked (my bore is much tighter at the muzzle end compared to the breech end). I shot the gun a total of about 100 rounds and out of those 100 rounds I had 4 misfires. This of course really bothered me. I tested several things to determine the cause of the misfires mostly based upon advice from members on this board. During my testing I discovered the bullets that I had been shooting would move 1-2 inches off the powder if I bump the barrel against something. I think this explains my misfires!
After discovering this, I reset my sizing die and sized my bullets just large enough that they would not move at the breech end, but they are almost impossible to load at the muzzle end now (basically I would have to hammer them down the first 6 inches with a short bullet starter rod I made). I’ve read where others have had problems with the barrel being choked on the CVA Scout, but I believe some barrels are worse than others. I sent a PM to a couple of members for some additional advice (thanks to sew and ballistic) and eventually concluded that I had two options – lap the barrel or shoot sabot loads.
Since I had never lapped a barrel before, I decided to try some sabot loads. I bought some Fury 40 caliber bullets and some Harvester sabots and began testing (also thanks to Dennis at Fury who sent me 3 different bullets and some sabots to try different combinations). I won’t bore you with all the details as this post is already long, but all 3 bullets shot about the same at 100 yds with the 250 STMZ bullet shooting slightly better groups (1.25” on average) than the 250 ST2P and 275 ST2P bullets (1.75” on average). To be honest I was hoping for better results.
While doing different tests on my rifle, I decided to order a DI plug and modules from Jeff. I did this before I realized my bullet was moving off the powder, so I probably would have been fine to stay with the HIS plug. I have shot 45 rounds so far now since changing to the DI plug without a single misfire. I like the DI plug much better because I think it is a more reliable ignition, so I am glad I made the switch.
After testing and shooting both smooth sized bullets and sabot loads out of this gun, my preference is to shoot smooth sized bullets. I will need a more consistent barrel to do this, so I have decided to lap my barrel. Steve has already given me good advice on his preferred method which is fire lapping (shooting lead bullets saturated with lapping compound). I am considering this, but for my particular situation I need to lap more at the muzzle end than the breech end and I’m not sure if fire lapping would accomplish this? I have read and studied a lot over the past 2 weeks, and I have an idea for how I want to proceed, but I was hoping for some good suggestions / advice from members of this group before I begin. Thanks in advance for your help.
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Post by ballistic on Apr 30, 2023 20:26:32 GMT -5
I don’t think you have a lot to loose by lapping at this point. I have done well or maybe just lucky by lapping with a tight fitting patch covered with blue magic metal polish. The trick is to keep the patch tight as it will loosen while lapping. Add small pieces of patch and more compound and plan on getting a workout. You will be able to feel where the tight (more resistance) and loose spots are. Lap from the breech end and mark your ramrod so you’re not coming out the muzzle. If the barrel is getting warm you’re making progress. If cold add more polish and increase the resistance. I would lap everything (concentrate on the tight areas) except the last 1/4-1/2” of the muzzle if possible. If it’s tight for the 1st 1/4” and then smooth loading -it won’t be too difficult to adjust your routine. If you mess up the crown lapping -accuracy will be bad. My method might be similar to Richards? I have also poured the lead molds for the barrel but couldn’t get it to work for me.
This is done by feel -just like the feel of loading a bullet. Plan on 30-45 minutes of aggressive work and a warm to hot barrel. Push a bullet down the barrel after to see if it did the trick or needs an area that needs some more elbow grease.
I use a barrel vise and a bore guide from the rear to hold the gun in place. If you have a solid table with a vice -protect your barrel with wood blocks or heavy rubber and it will work as well.
You could try to PM Flattopusa for some in-depth methods on lapping. He’s pretty knowledgable and experienced with lapping.
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Post by Sideshow on May 1, 2023 1:46:58 GMT -5
I lap all factory production barrels . Every Single One .
My method was given to me by a Vietnam Gunnery that took care of the snipers rifles . There may be better methods but this has worked for me nicely for at least 35 years . White ultra fine scotchbrite wraped once and butted together around a bore brush with some light oil . You must be able to Feel what is going on in that barrel !!! ITS GOING TO BE TIGHT , it Must be !!!
If you are Not that type of guy Hire this done !!!
Here is a rough overview . First smooth out the entire barrel with the scotchbrite covered brush . When its just smoothed up it just glides smoothly with no snags . Dont over do this as this IS your baseline . Put on a NEW BRONZE BRUSH NOW AND RE-WRAP THE SCOTCHBRIGHT before going ANY further . Going in from the breech you Will Feel your choked area as you bump up against it . This area to the muzzle is Now All you will work . Im tempted to say use the light grey scotchbrite from this point forward BUT it cuts Much Faster than the White ultra fine 1500 equivelant . How this turns out is On You . Your Ability to Feel whats going on and Your Judgement of that !!! This is No Time to Be Distracted . With very very short bumps up against that choke keep doing that until you feel it give away before going a hair further into that choke . This is repeated over and over again till you Finally reach the muzzle . Its kinda like working a putty knife very slowly with little bumps into the gasket to remove it perfectly clean the first time doing that . No going back to do it again !!! . When you are done the entire bore will have Exactly the same tension and perfectly smooth feel when its Done Right . Done Right is entirely Up To You !!!
Properly done it will shoot lights out great . Far easier to clean and smooth as glass to load . Lands AND Grooves are slick as a whistle . Any small blending needed use the White just until smooth No More .
Good Luck !!!
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Post by transyank on May 1, 2023 7:44:02 GMT -5
Let me say I have a KP-1 (Knight 45/70) Conversion that from new had a tight spot about at the rear sight area for approx. 4" After talking to Sideshow on phone and doing this process exactly as he said Problem solved and gun loads with light steady pressure. It Works. Good luck go show use a lot of oil..
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Post by Sideshow on May 2, 2023 1:08:50 GMT -5
Let me say I have a KP-1 (Knight 45/70) Conversion that from new had a tight spot about at the rear sight area for approx. 4" After talking to Sideshow on phone and doing this process exactly as he said Problem solved and gun loads with light steady pressure. It Works. Good luck go show use a lot of oil.. I was glad to help transyank . Now shoot you a Booner !!! |
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Post by transyank on May 2, 2023 5:27:56 GMT -5
Thanks will try LOL... Did put 4 Whitetail and 3 Wild boar in the cooler so far..
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Post by james72 on May 2, 2023 7:26:02 GMT -5
Let me say I have a KP-1 (Knight 45/70) Conversion that from new had a tight spot about at the rear sight area for approx. 4" After talking to Sideshow on phone and doing this process exactly as he said Problem solved and gun loads with light steady pressure. It Works. Good luck go show use a lot of oil.. Thanks Sideshow, I've not heard about that procedure before. Sounds like a good method without having to use a lapping compound. Transyank, how many strokes did it take to get rid of the tight spot in your barrel just to give me an idea? Did you use gun oil or some other type? |
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Post by dannoboone on May 2, 2023 10:54:48 GMT -5
What would be the procedure if a barrel is choked at the breech end?
I have two PacNor's with the same problem...one isn't too bad but
the other requires much TLC/cleaning in order to seat bullets. It is
amazing the thing is pretty accurate.
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Post by Sideshow on May 3, 2023 1:14:40 GMT -5
What would be the procedure if a barrel is choked at the breech end? I have two PacNor's with the same problem...one isn't too bad but the other requires much TLC/cleaning in order to seat bullets. It is amazing the thing is pretty accurate. Go in from the muzzle then . The portion of the barrel thats good is your gauge for tension and the all important feel that its the same size ONLY WHEN USING A BRAND NEW BRONZE BRUSH WRAPED . If you Tune In to what your Feeling its amazing just how precise this can be . That wrapped brush MUST BE TIGHT . Dont Force thru the constriction !!! BUMP BUMP BUMP THE EDGE OF IT . That wraped brush finds its way Thru just Fine !!! Patience is the key here . Visualize what youre doing . Its litterally like scrapeing a gasket with little bumps so whats left is perfectly clean . Rush this and results are Not impressive . ITS ALL UP TO YOU AND YOUR JUDGEMENT BY TUNEING IN TO THAT FEEL !!! This Simply Works . The White 1500 equivilent leaves a fantastic finish !!! |
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Post by Sideshow on May 3, 2023 1:38:49 GMT -5
Let me say I have a KP-1 (Knight 45/70) Conversion that from new had a tight spot about at the rear sight area for approx. 4" After talking to Sideshow on phone and doing this process exactly as he said Problem solved and gun loads with light steady pressure. It Works. Good luck go show use a lot of oil.. Thanks Sideshow, I've not heard about that procedure before. Sounds like a good method without having to use a lapping compound. Transyank, how many strokes did it take to get rid of the tight spot in your barrel just to give me an idea? Did you use gun oil or some other type? James72 or ANYBODY if youre worried about how many "strokes" You Havent Listened !!!! AT ALL !!! it takes what it takes !!! Every Barrel is Unique . Pay Attention To What Ive SAID and HOW IVE SAID IT . That MATTERS !!! If results Arent ALL THAT Thats on YOU !!! i Know this already . Guys are HORRIBLE ABOUT THIS !!! And it gets them in trouble every single time . They "Half Listen" and get it All wrong . Thats on THEM . PERIOD !!! IF anybody thinks that Gunny didnt make this CRYSTAL CLEAR Youre SADLY Mistaken !!! PLEASE....Pay Attention . Any realy light oil is fine . Even cooking oil or WD-40 !!!. LIGHT !!! Very runny !!! Personally i dont use alot . This oil is there to Slightly cut friction . The idea is to FEEL WHATS GOING ON WORKING SLOWLY . The little bumps take themselves thru the tight spot . DONT FORCE IT . At the crown its No Different . It just gently breaks thru . At that point Carefully reinsert the wrapped brush and check the felt uniformity of the entire barrel . Blend if needed . It wont take much if hardly any at all . Youre NOT Cleaning the barrel up and down Willy -- Nilly back and forth . . YOU ARE ACTUALLY MACHINEING ONLY THE TIGHT SPOT IN THE BARREL IN A CONTROLLED MANNER . DO IT EXACTLY AS I SAID !!! Little bumps up against the tight spot !!! If you Force it thru the tight spot youll completely lose the FEEL AND ALL HOPE OF CONCENTRICEITY OF SIZE . This is WHY A NEW brush . DO THIS AS I SAID. !!! No More . No Less Done EXACTLY as ive said this can turn a ok ho--hum barrel into an insanely accurate one . Ive done it Many times . The rest is up to you . 1) copper/bronze bore brush - caliber size NEW , A MUST !!! 2) white scotchbrite ultra fine 1500 equivilent - change when dirty (body shop supply-hard to find elsewhere) 3) lite runny oil 4)swiveling cleaning rod 5) PATIENCE !!! 6) EXACTLY Follow Directions -- A MUST !!! 7) Concentrate on the task Only 8) clean barrel / test fit sized bullet and loaded sabot if used 9) shoot it !!! Both ways . 10) Admire New Laser !!! -- much easier to clean , not a scratch or tooling mark anywhere and concentric top to bottom . There ARE other methods . This one just so happens to be my favorite and works for me . I hope it can be appreciated that my intention was Not to be harsh . Demanding YES , For Your Own Good . Thats Why this process is UP TO YOU . I can only tell how and what works and what Doesnt work . THE REST IS UP TO YOU . YOUR OUTCOME will tell me if you Really Listened . |
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Post by james72 on May 11, 2023 21:07:44 GMT -5
I don’t think you have a lot to loose by lapping at this point. The trick is to keep the patch tight as it will loosen while lapping. If the barrel is getting warm you’re making progress. If cold add more polish and increase the resistance. I would lap everything (concentrate on the tight areas) except the last 1/4-1/2” of the muzzle if possible. I finished lapping my barrel this week, so I wanted to post an update. I hand lapped the barrel using 400 grit lapping compound and a tight fitting patch (this is the method I was most comfortable with). I used a 45 caliber bronze brush wrapped with a 2-3/4" square cotton patch. First I lapped the tight end (last 6" of the barrel from the muzzle). Once this section matched the middle section of the barrel, I extended my stroke another 6" (last 12" of the barrel from the muzzle). I stopped several times during the lapping process to clean, check bullet fit, and then lap again. It was a laborious process but worth it in the end. Your patch needs to be really tight. It should take some muscle to move it. As ballistic mentioned, when your barrel gets warm you will know you are making progress. How much metal did I remove? Only a guess, but maybe .0001 or .0002 from the lands. My bullet now sized at around .4505 loads with consistent pressure from muzzle to breech. How did it shoot? Better than before. After finding the right combination, I had several groups below 1" at 100 yards. I attached a couple of targets below.   |
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Post by Sideshow on May 12, 2023 4:19:11 GMT -5
Glad that worked for you james72 . Isnt it nice to have a gun that shoots and loads as it should ?? I already know that feels wonderfull and You made it happen .
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Post by transyank on May 12, 2023 6:00:06 GMT -5
James 72 Nice job I'm glad it worked out for you..Trans Yank
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Post by buckeye68 on May 12, 2023 16:11:38 GMT -5
I don’t think you have a lot to loose by lapping at this point. The trick is to keep the patch tight as it will loosen while lapping. If the barrel is getting warm you’re making progress. If cold add more polish and increase the resistance. I would lap everything (concentrate on the tight areas) except the last 1/4-1/2” of the muzzle if possible. I finished lapping my barrel this week, so I wanted to post an update. I hand lapped the barrel using 400 grit lapping compound and a tight fitting patch (this is the method I was most comfortable with). I used a 45 caliber bronze brush wrapped with a 2-3/4" square cotton patch. First I lapped the tight end (last 6" of the barrel from the muzzle). Once this section matched the middle section of the barrel, I extended my stroke another 6" (last 12" of the barrel from the muzzle). I stopped several times during the lapping process to clean, check bullet fit, and then lap again. It was a laborious process but worth it in the end. Your patch needs to be really tight. It should take some muscle to move it. As ballistic mentioned, when your barrel gets warm you will know you are making progress. How much metal did I remove? Only a guess, but maybe .0001 or .0002 from the lands. My bullet now sized at around .4505 loads with consistent pressure from muzzle to breech. How did it shoot? Better than before. After finding the right combination, I had several groups below 1" at 100 yards. I attached a couple of targets below. View AttachmentView AttachmentThanks for the follow up and I’m glad it’s shooting better. I’ve lapped 2 of the the 3 I’ve own. You can’t beat them for the money. You get what you pay for and sometimes a little elbow grease is what it takes to make them a shooter. |
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