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Post by buckeye68 on Apr 1, 2023 19:23:56 GMT -5
Just want to know what everyone thinks how much setting pressure it takes for a bullet going down the barrel for the gun to fire.
This is just for fun guys.
Vote and give your opinion.
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Post by ballistic on Apr 1, 2023 21:26:58 GMT -5
I voted 2 finger pressure but almost voted ram rod pressure. At the bench ramrod has always fired -but speeds aren’t consistently reliable. For hunting ramrod pressure isn’t reliable enough. I think 1 finger would be the minimum that’s acceptable. Shots seem to load easier after 2 shots so 1 finger can get easier. I think 2 finger is the best all around minimum. And like Dennis -direct is the best for easy seating down the tube-my opinion. Too loose -the seating jag might pull the bullet off the powder-have had it happen.
Good Poll.
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Post by ultimtepredator on Apr 1, 2023 21:44:56 GMT -5
I’m on the 2 fingers boat but have one gun that likes snug fit..
Always try to start 2 Fingers and test on each side of it .. as in ramrod seating and snug fit but seams I always go to 2 fingers..
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Post by Deputy819 on Apr 2, 2023 4:06:00 GMT -5
I voted for what “I” like 😇. I’m interested to see what’s said about loading forces and obturation (as it pertains to SML’s) by the guy(s) who have done tests using strain gauges.
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Post by transyank on Apr 2, 2023 5:52:06 GMT -5
I don't shoot benchrest comp. Just use mine for hunting it is tight enough to stay on the powder charge..
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Post by flattopusa on Apr 2, 2023 8:57:19 GMT -5
I didn't vote but but as I see it if there is powder in the barrel and a primer in the module the charge should go off. With no "compression" smokeless powder will ignite (that's why we don't smoke or have open flame when we are loading powder).
A buddy of mine was shooting his CVA muzzle loader at the range....black powder and a 209 primer. When the shot went off it didn't sound right. After checking his loading block it turned out he did not have a bullet in the bore....but, the black powder ignited.
I have shot very loose bullets (weight of the rod pressure...if that) in my SML (Hanks Direct Ignition) and those charges never failed to fire. For hunting purposes I am sure the bullet would come off the charge......so, I size my bullets to insure that they will stay put....and a light "one hand" pressure on the rod and a little pressure when the bullet is seated on top of the powder charge does that quite well in my SML.
Hank has a video on you tube shooting very loose fitting bullets in one of his SML's and every shot went off and accuracy was good.
I have never had a FTF in my SML. I think That is due to Hanks Direct Ignition. A light one hand seating of the bullet down the bore and a light push on the bullet when it reaches the powder charge keeps the bullet in place. Because I shoot soft lead bullets I always twist the rod after the bullet is seated on top of the charge to keep the jag from pulling the bullet off of the charge. That is what works for me.
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Post by james72 on Apr 2, 2023 9:05:44 GMT -5
I voted one hand pressure because I've had some problems with misfires that I think are attributed to a loose bullet using HIS and 4198 and no wad. Maybe if using a wad and/or using DI I would have voted 2 finger pressure.
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Post by buckeye68 on Apr 2, 2023 9:49:24 GMT -5
I’m voting for two finger loading. Bench gun and my hunting guns are all two finger loading.
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Post by ballistic on Apr 2, 2023 10:49:32 GMT -5
Smokeless powder needs compression or pressure to burn reliably and entirely or cleanly Blackpowder for the most part doesn’t need pressure to ignite. There are variables of course which include the size of the grain of powder and the burn rate. Faster burn rate powders ignite and burn easier. Fast powders are like gasoline and slow are like diesel. You can test this out and this is how to do the test.
Make sure you are outside and away from flammables and use sound judgment if you want to test this. Don’t take open containers with you - the kind that contain unsound judgment -lol !
Measure 1 grain volumes of fast to slow powders. Place each sample outside in a safe spot (wearing PPE) onto a metal surface. Only test 1 sample at a time -keep the others at a far distance. Use your barbecue extended lighter and see what lights and how it burns. Blackpowder will immediately flash and leave some residue. Faster smokeless powders will ignite and some will only partially ignite and burn. Slower smokeless powders will be a challenge to get them to burn- the kernels will discolor - and different colors of flames will appear as you are trying to light or even burn them.
I believe the reason the direct has ignited loose fitting bullets or powder is because of the energy transfer that immediately creates a pressure spike. An .080 flame hole pushes the flame front and creates more initial pressure. A bullet on the other side that needs to be moved is needed and the loose fitting bullet is still enough resistance to fire the round and burn clean. The .030 flash hole does a great job on the module system - but lacks in that initial pressure spike. That’s why less powder is needed for direct vs modules.
What happens when you don’t load a bullet but the gun goes bang ? If you tell me that your barrel is filthy from the powder residue left behind -believable. If you have unburnt kernels in the barrel -again believable.
If you tell me that a loose wobbly fitting bullet works out in the woods well for you - then we just became best friends. I’ll let you take 1st shot every single time. I’ll stick to the 2 fingers minimum pressure.
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Post by flattopusa on Apr 2, 2023 11:27:04 GMT -5
It seems like the difference between the DIS and the HIS make all the difference in failure to ignite the powder charge with the loose bullet? Maybe its the diameter dimensions or length of the flash hole, or just the fact that the DIS primer module is screwed in tight and the HIS primer module is not?
When I ordered my SML from Hank I wanted it to be simple and reliable and originally wanted the HIS to aid in the speed of reloading because it was going to be a hunting rifle...but he suggested the DIS and although a bit slower to reload it has never missed a lick. I realize that the HIS can be just as reliable with proper fitting bullets, wool wads, etc, but I am glad that I listened to him. I was a newbie to the SML thing and needed to keep the whole process simple....besides I never expected semi-auto performance from a muzzle loader anyway.
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Post by hillbill on Apr 2, 2023 12:07:30 GMT -5
I didn't vote but but as I see it if there is powder in the barrel and a primer in the module the charge should go off. With no "compression" smokeless powder will ignite (that's why we don't smoke or have open flame when we are loading powder). A buddy of mine was shooting his CVA muzzle loader at the range....black powder and a 209 primer. When the shot went off it didn't sound right. After checking his loading block it turned out he did not have a bullet in the bore....but, the black powder ignited. I have shot very loose bullets (weight of the rod pressure...if that) in my SML (Hanks Direct Ignition) and those charges never failed to fire. For hunting purposes I am sure the bullet would come off the charge......so, I size my bullets to insure that they will stay put....and a light "one hand" pressure on the rod and a little pressure when the bullet is seated on top of the powder charge does that quite well in my SML. Hank has a video on you tube shooting very loose fitting bullets in one of his SML's and every shot went off and accuracy was good. I have never had a FTF in my SML. I think That is due to Hanks Direct Ignition. A light one hand seating of the bullet down the bore and a light push on the bullet when it reaches the powder charge keeps the bullet in place. Because I shoot soft lead bullets I always twist the rod after the bullet is seated on top of the charge to keep the jag from pulling the bullet off of the charge. That is what works for me. I didn't vote either, kind of a loaded question, my preference is whatever the gun likes, normally that's about 2 fingers but not always.
BUT I have seen fail to fire with smokeless powder, several times as a matter of fact. A lot depends on powder used, powder volume and ignition source.
I have seen break actions fail to fire with a too loose bullet BUT never with direct ignition. I have also see other guns fail to fire due to a very loose fit, not often mind you but I have seen it happen. Yes smokeless powder does require pressure to reliably ignite, black powder? NO. Ignition source does matter, the hotter the better with a loose fitting bullet.
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Post by dannoboone on Apr 2, 2023 13:19:57 GMT -5
Soooo many variables to consider! I voted two finger pressure but have had a very loose bullet fall to the powder with the weight of the ramrod and the load went bang. The only FTF I have ever had was back in the .50 10MLII days with a 250gr bullet over 4227, two hand pressure and it just would NOT go off. I may be the only dinosaur here still using duplex loads, but they just plain work. The time the weight of the ramrod pushed a bullet home had a duplex of N110/IMR3031 under an undersized 275gr bullet (was actually surprised it went off). With some loads, a few grains of Green Dot is used. For my needs, nothing heavier then 275gr bullets is used. I would almost bet that duplexing gives near or same reliability as DI, but that may not be too popular here.  |
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Post by Richard on Apr 2, 2023 14:04:24 GMT -5
Danno...you are not alone! I have ALL ways found duplex loads to be the best. They are totally reliable and give excellent accuracy.
Over the years I have heard the complaint that they are too slow to reload?? First of all when you load your rifle for the "hunt", you are under no pressure! For me, a muzzleloader is a "one shot, one kill" type of hunting rifle. Two vials taped back to back will reload maybe just a few seconds slower? Is that a big deal??
A favorite for me would be 10/68 of N110 and 4198! IF...I was concerned about a second fast reload that I needed to cut 3 seconds? I would just load a vial with 80 gr. Of 4198 which would give me the same velocity?
The reliability of a duplex out weights a couple seconds faster reload!
Oh yeah, along with Direct Ignition!
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