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Post by tkaleel on Mar 21, 2023 13:36:44 GMT -5
Hi all, I am new the the forum. Thanks in advance for any help you all may provide. I have a smokeless encore now shooting 270 Parkers and happy with it, but I am putting together a different muzzloader to reach out a little further. As far as components go I already have an origin long action mag, grayboe stock, HIS 5/8 breach plug with alum. bronze modules, apa fb brake, load through funnel, and my local Smith is getting me a 1.25 straight bull bartlein 18 twist. My goal is to push Kyle's 328 or 353 hard-cores into the 3000 fps. Would love to do some 600+ hunting. From everything I have read already on here, H4895 sounds like the right powder for me but I have not been able to locate any. Jeff recommended a powder chamber cut to hold 80% of my powder charge. With that being said my biggest questions now would be what powder is best and how large of a powder chamber should I have cut to try and meet my goals, without going too big and have to always run a huge powder charge. Thanks again.
Taylor
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Post by ballistic on Mar 21, 2023 14:37:41 GMT -5
I have purpose built several centerfire guns specifically around bullets of choice. Sometimes it has worked and other times they shot everything except the bullet I had chosen. The same will be true with your muzzleloader. If you build the chamber too large-it’s hard to reverse it. My advice would be to go with a chamber made for 4198. If the barrel shoots the heavier rounds with H4895 and you as a shooter can handle the extra recoil -then I’d think about making the chamber bigger. IMR4198 works really well - just as well as the Hodgden -JMO. A straight bull barrel should shoot everything pretty well - that’s pretty heavy.
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Post by tkaleel on Mar 21, 2023 17:33:13 GMT -5
How do you all do your load development for trying different powder and bullet combos? Like for example do you follow a 458 win mag manual and work up from there. I may have to pick up whatever powder I can find available and go from there. Thanks
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Post by drinkwaj280 on Mar 21, 2023 18:38:06 GMT -5
I assume you are talking about a 45 SML. With the specs and dimensions you listed you won't need to develop a load from scratch. There are tons of threads full of load data including max safe loads. Use the search function for a bullet or powder you're intersted in and multiple threads will appear.
As you would in cartridge reloading find the bullet or powder combo you want to try and work up to max. Find a node that produces the accuracy and doesn't show pressure signs and your done.
Also, don't overlook the 300/303HC bullets from Kyle. You may find these will do well at the ranges you want to shoot with good speed and accuarcy with less recoil. For example:
I shoot a M700 45 SML HIS, brass modules, 1.25"x5", modified Sendero, 26" with radial brake. I shoot the Aeromax 303HC, with 88gn of RL 10x and Fed 215. This produces 3 shot groups of .62 ctc at 100yds moving at 2932 fps in 30*F. This load only drops 8 MOA at 500 yds with a 200 yd zero. I was able to take a deer in VA with this setup at 500 yds this past season. Hope this helped.
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Post by tkaleel on Mar 21, 2023 19:11:14 GMT -5
I assume you are talking about a 45 SML. With the specs and dimensions you listed you won't need to develop a load from scratch. There are tons of threads full of load data including max safe loads. Use the search function for a bullet or powder you're intersted in and multiple threads will appear. As you would in cartridge reloading find the bullet or powder combo you want to try and work up to max. Find a node the produces the accuracy and doesn't show pressure signs and your done. Also, don't overlook the 300/303HC bullets from Kyle. You may find these will do well at the ranges you want to shoot with good speed and accuarcy with less recoil. For example: I shoot a M700 45 SML HIS, brass modules, 1.25"x5", 26" with brake. I shoot the Aeromax 303HC, with 88gn of RL 10x and Fed 215. This produces 3 shot groups of .62 ctc at 100yds moving at 2932 fps in 30*F. This load only drops 8.25 MOA at 500 yds with a 200 yd zero. I was able to take a deer in VA with this setup at 500 yds this past season. Hope this helped. Yes 45 cal. 215GM primers. Do you have a powder chamber cut in your barrel? Just trying to get an idea of optimal performance without giving up too much on the lower end by cutting too big of a chamber. I am also seeing some really quick loads with 325s and varget, any experience? Thanks for the input.
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Post by tkaleel on Mar 21, 2023 19:15:43 GMT -5
I have purpose built several centerfire guns specifically around bullets of choice. Sometimes it has worked and other times they shot everything except the bullet I had chosen. The same will be true with your muzzleloader. If you build the chamber too large-it’s hard to reverse it. My advice would be to go with a chamber made for 4198. If the barrel shoots the heavier rounds with H4895 and you as a shooter can handle the extra recoil -then I’d think about making the chamber bigger. IMR4198 works really well - just as well as the Hodgden -JMO. A straight bull barrel should shoot everything pretty well - that’s pretty heavy. Thanks for your help.
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Post by drinkwaj280 on Mar 21, 2023 20:11:26 GMT -5
I don't have a powder chamber on my M700. Didn't ask for one because didn't know about these things at the time. Don't believe this has hurt me any either. I was only shooting 275gn bullets at the time of the build. I just made the move to the 303HC back in 2021. I have shot 95gn of IMR 3031 but was only shooting the 303HC. Not sure powder chamber would have helped here either. Considerd the 325's before the move to the 303HC but performance is so balanced never tried the heavier bullets.
As far as the Varget loads go I asked about that in 2020 on this forum. The guys here had experimented with it and said it took large doses, over 100 gns and could be finicky according to one. I got the idea they abandoned it for H4895. You could use IMR 3031 with the 325's since H4895 is difficult to come by. It's just more susceptible to temp swings. I used it for the 2021-2022 hunting season when I couldn't get 10x or Benchmark. It worked fine just lost about 80 fps compared to Summer weather velocities.
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Post by hillbill on Mar 21, 2023 21:16:33 GMT -5
Sounds like you are putting together a really heavy gun, it also sounds like it will be really barrel heavy. Just think it through before putting it in that stock, you might need to add a good bit of lead in the butt if you use it.
Several years ago some of us went down the 3031 path only to abandon it a short time later, we had extreme velocity swings with that powder, yes we were shooting 325s with it also, accuracy was good but?
Not trying to discourage what you are doing but 600 yds is very doable with even 300s and a much lighter barrel, I have shot to 1000 several times with a 300 with good accuracy. Back when we had the 1000 yd match at Dead Zero a 300 aeromax won the match.
Many of us use quickload to estimate pressures/velocity's/volumes. it works pretty well if one knows how to manipulate the program for what we are doing.
I have played with about every weight build one could imagine from 21 lbs down but unless you are doing a pure target gun a full bull will get VERY heavy, I would also consider the very best brake you can find if you are set on shooting the heavy stuff at high speed.
Yes 4895 would be a better choice for what you describe, many of us have shot it with 325s with great results at 3000+ fps. load data can be found here.
Do powder chambers make a difference? yes and no for what you are contemplating with a slow powder? YES for the average Joe shooting lighter bullets and faster powders? NO
The larger the powder charge (slower powder for heavy bullets) the more you can benefit from a chamber.
I know several guys that shoot the superman 105 grn load of H-4895 and 325s without much of a chamber without issue, I too shot it for a while with good success. A 350? likely will require a slower powder than 4895 at a large dose to keep the pressure down and get the speed up, here is where the large chamber would be of benefit but as has been discussed will limit what you can use in your gun.
One thing guys don't think much about these days is the amount of hard to find powder required to push these heavy bullets at high speed. A pound don't go far at all shooting over 100 grns at a time, just something to contemplate.
If you are set on a certain chamber size with a given powder let me know and I can give you a depth, I have a chamber gauge that was built specifically for that purpose.
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Post by tkaleel on Mar 22, 2023 8:20:08 GMT -5
Sounds like you are putting together a really heavy gun, it also sounds like it will be really barrel heavy. Just think it through before putting it in that stock, you might need to add a good bit of lead in the butt if you use it. Several years ago some of us went down the 3031 path only to abandon it a short time later, we had extreme velocity swings with that powder, yes we were shooting 325s with it also, accuracy was good but? Not trying to discourage what you are doing but 600 yds is very doable with even 300s and a much lighter barrel, I have shot to 1000 several times with a 300 with good accuracy. Back when we had the 1000 yd match at Dead Zero a 300 aeromax won the match. Many of us use quickload to estimate pressures/velocity's/volumes. it works pretty well if one knows how to manipulate the program for what we are doing. I have played with about every weight build one could imagine from 21 lbs down but unless you are doing a pure target gun a full bull will get VERY heavy, I would also consider the very best brake you can find if you are set on shooting the heavy stuff at high speed. Yes 4895 would be a better choice for what you describe, many of us have shot it with 325s with great results at 3000+ fps. load data can be found here. Do powder chambers make a difference? yes and no for what you are contemplating with a slow powder? YES for the average Joe shooting lighter bullets and faster powders? NO The larger the powder charge (slower powder for heavy bullets) the more you can benefit from a chamber. I know several guys that shoot the superman 105 grn load of H-4895 and 325s without much of a chamber without issue, I too shot it for a while with good success. A 350? likely will require a slower powder than 4895 at a large dose to keep the pressure down and get the speed up, here is where the large chamber would be of benefit but as has been discussed will limit what you can use in your gun. One thing guys don't think much about these days is the amount of hard to find powder required to push these heavy bullets at high speed. A pound don't go far at all shooting over 100 grns at a time, just something to contemplate. If you are set on a certain chamber size with a given powder let me know and I can give you a depth, I have a chamber gauge that was built specifically for that purpose. Bill, thank you for the advice. I am going to consider the advice of a lighter barrel. 90% of the hunting I do anymore is either off of a bench or in a shooting house which is why I was thinking heavy. I do have other lightweight guns that I do use if I end up on longer walks or treestand sitting. I do plan on weighing the stock down a little as well. The load I use in my lighter gun is 72 gn N120 with a 270 parker. IMR 4895 is available at my local shop right now, could this powder be an acceptable alternative to H4895 until I am able to locate it (or another powder that would be a good alternative maybe N530)? If so I would be leaning toward cutting a chamber for that combo and going from there. If you could help with chamber dimensions that would be awesome. I really appreciate the help.
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Post by ballistic on Mar 22, 2023 8:35:04 GMT -5
Bills advice is the best route honestly. I would just like to add this. If you go direct ignition down the road -that plug holds 3 grains more powder than the HIS. I recently compared the HIS plug (12.5-13) grains of 4895 vs the DIS (primed) plug (15.5-16) grains of 4895. Everything adds up when cutting a chamber- make sure you include the plugs volume. The type of powder also changes the volume. Try to stay with stick powder as the volumes aren’t too far off from the fast to slow powders. Some of the fast ball powders are more dense and don’t fill the chambers up as far -not good if you have a big chamber. JMO The above was with the 5/8 plugs from Jeff. If you have a 9/16 you’ll need to measure its volume.
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Post by SURESHOT on Mar 22, 2023 8:35:46 GMT -5
I Have one bolt gun with a MODFIED Sendero (Brux barrel) 26 inch HIS breech plug, with a Rem 700 SA single shot action riding in a Stockys laminated thumbhole its a little heavy, like yourself I shoot at a bench or walk to a treestand (house) I use N120 73 grains with a Pittman 300 grain missle around 2925mv cuts hole at 100 and very accurate out to 600 yds. Have another one coming today only thing that is differant is the stock, went with a Mcmillian, a friend of mine has one for his wife and the weight was alot differant and recoil was still the same setting in the Mcmillain stock,, I need to say as far as the chamber I just let the one doing the building take care of that its part of the cost of the build, AS far as powder N120 which I have plenty but it is out and about for sale...
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Post by tkaleel on Mar 22, 2023 16:14:42 GMT -5
Bills advice is the best route honestly. I would just like to add this. If you go direct ignition down the road -that plug holds 3 grains more powder than the HIS. I recently compared the HIS plug (12.5-13) grains of 4895 vs the DIS (primed) plug (15.5-16) grains of 4895. Everything adds up when cutting a chamber- make sure you include the plugs volume. The type of powder also changes the volume. Try to stay with stick powder as the volumes aren’t too far off from the fast to slow powders. Some of the fast ball powders are more dense and don’t fill the chambers up as far -not good if you have a big chamber. JMO The above was with the 5/8 plugs from Jeff. If you have a 9/16 you’ll need to measure its volume. With that said, is your advice no chamber at all or just a smaller chamber? Thanks
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Post by hillbill on Mar 22, 2023 16:41:00 GMT -5
Keep in mind 350s at high speed= brutal recoil 325s? still strong recoil but not as severe. Gun weight helps but so does a very good brake.
You can always cut your chamber deeper but once it's cut and you want to go in the opposite direction it requires more extensive surgery. IMR-4895 can be substituted but I don't know the exact correlation between the two. If you want a chamber size I will need a specific powder and chamber grain size.
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Post by tkaleel on Mar 22, 2023 17:00:19 GMT -5
I Have one bolt gun with a MODFIED Sendero (Brux barrel) 26 inch HIS breech plug, with a Rem 700 SA single shot action riding in a Stockys laminated thumbhole its a little heavy, like yourself I shoot at a bench or walk to a treestand (house) I use N120 73 grains with a Pittman 300 grain missle around 2925mv cuts hole at 100 and very accurate out to 600 yds. Have another one coming today only thing that is differant is the stock, went with a Mcmillian, a friend of mine has one for his wife and the weight was alot differant and recoil was still the same setting in the Mcmillain stock,, I need to say as far as the chamber I just let the one doing the building take care of that its part of the cost of the build, AS far as powder N120 which I have plenty but it is out and about for sale... I like the sound of that. I have some n120. I will look for more. Thanks
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Post by tkaleel on Mar 22, 2023 17:21:35 GMT -5
Keep in mind 350s at high speed= brutal recoil 325s? still strong recoil but not as severe. Gun weight helps but so does a very good brake. You can always cut your chamber deeper but once it's cut and you want to go in the opposite direction it requires more extensive surgery. IMR-4895 can be substituted but I don't know the exact correlation between the two. If you want a chamber size I will need a specific powder and chamber grain size. Bill, after considering yours and everyone's advice and I have n120 on hand, I now plan on starting with around 72 gns of n120 with 303 hard-cores. Hopefully powder becomes more available and I will have the opportunity to try 325s and maybe the 350s eventually. How much chamber, and is 18 twist too much for the 303s? I would like to be able to try the heavier bullets eventually. Thanks
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Post by hillbill on Mar 22, 2023 18:45:23 GMT -5
I have shot 300s in an 18 twist without a problem, is it the optimal twist? likely not but I don't know that you will see a difference. N-120 @ about 72- 74 grains with a 325 will max it out, even at that I would start at 68 or so and ease up til you find a node and watch for loose primers etc, the 18 twist will build pressure a little faster than a 20.
300s will work well with 120 also.
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Post by tkaleel on Mar 22, 2023 19:08:17 GMT -5
I have shot 300s in an 18 twist without a problem, is it the optimal twist? likely not but I don't know that you will see a difference. N-120 @ about 72- 74 grains with a 325 will max it out, even at that I would start at 68 or so and ease up til you find a node and watch for loose primers etc, the 18 twist will build pressure a little faster than a 20. 300s will work well with 120 also. Can you help me with powder chamber dimensions?
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Post by hillbill on Mar 22, 2023 20:26:57 GMT -5
I will look to see if I have any 120, if not I might be able to get you close
Ok so my chamber checker has a .575 bore, thats what I use for my 5/8 plugs, others might vary slightly. That said, I don't have 120, I do have 130 and the best I can remember they are close in size.
So Jeff's plug is 1.000 face to shoulder 70 grains measured .912 on my checker, making the bore 1.912 long I would play safe and bore 1.750 when boring for the plug, that should put you in safe territory and give you around a 60+ grain chamber, keep in mind your plug will hold 10-12 grains, I am counting that into the chamber size.
Normally I go 1.750 on my plug bore BUT I don't shoot light loads, take that into account.
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Post by ballistic on Mar 22, 2023 20:44:13 GMT -5
Bills advice is the best route honestly. I would just like to add this. If you go direct ignition down the road -that plug holds 3 grains more powder than the HIS. I recently compared the HIS plug (12.5-13) grains of 4895 vs the DIS (primed) plug (15.5-16) grains of 4895. Everything adds up when cutting a chamber- make sure you include the plugs volume. The type of powder also changes the volume. Try to stay with stick powder as the volumes aren’t too far off from the fast to slow powders. Some of the fast ball powders are more dense and don’t fill the chambers up as far -not good if you have a big chamber. JMO The above was with the 5/8 plugs from Jeff. If you have a 9/16 you’ll need to measure its volume. With that said, is your advice no chamber at all or just a smaller chamber? Thanks This is my opinion on the powder chamber Pros 1- you can cut the top 1/2 of a .45 brush and brush from the muzzle and back out. Breech plug doesn’t need to be removed. Brushing has proven for many to work as bore prep for the next shooting session -instead of full cleans. For me brushing works best followed by 1 clean patch. 2-slower powders burn cleaner with a chamber so you can get more shots without cleaning. 3- pressures will be lower with a chamber so some extra speed can be gained. Cons 1-Patching from the muzzle end can result in patches getting stuck/falling into the chamber area. When this happens the breech plug often needs to be removed. Sometimes a patch puller or a smaller caliber brush will pull them out. I mark my ramrod and have still pushed patches into the chamber. I try to stop the patch an inch before the chamber and mess up sometimes. 2- You absolutely need to know where your bullet to powder will rest in the barrel. You don’t want your bullet 3/4 of the way in the chamber- this could lead to a dangerous spike in pressure or worse. My advice (if you were to choose a powder chamber) would be a 50-55 grain chamber based off a fast powder like 4895. I also think you’d be ok without a chamber. High speeds can be obtained without the chamber - 3000 fps and higher with 300 grain bullets can be obtained without one. 275 and 300 grain bullets have way less recoil than the 325 bullets. 350,s like Hillbill said are brutal on recoil - too much for me with the 12.5 lb .45 and also too much for my 17 lb .40. The extra speed and lower recoil of the lighter bullets will probably give you an edge on wind anyway. I would PM Hillbill if you want the dimensions. I have some math as well for depths to powder but Hillbill is your best bet.
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Post by SURESHOT on Mar 23, 2023 8:09:43 GMT -5
I Have one bolt gun with a MODFIED Sendero (Brux barrel) 26 inch HIS breech plug, with a Rem 700 SA single shot action riding in a Stockys laminated thumbhole its a little heavy, like yourself I shoot at a bench or walk to a treestand (house) I use N120 73 grains with a Pittman 300 grain missle around 2925mv cuts hole at 100 and very accurate out to 600 yds. Have another one coming today only thing that is differant is the stock, went with a Mcmillian, a friend of mine has one for his wife and the weight was alot differant and recoil was still the same setting in the Mcmillain stock,, I need to say as far as the chamber I just let the one doing the building take care of that its part of the cost of the build, AS far as powder N120 which I have plenty but it is out and about for sale... I like the sound of that. I have some n120. I will look for more. Thanks On finding N120 powder Powder Valley has both 1# and 8# containers around $41./ $229.00
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