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Post by YankeeReb on Mar 17, 2023 7:24:26 GMT -5
I have a old optima elete 45-70 conversion that I want to use my 405 cast lead bullet and I’m not looking for light speed but I want to duplicate the original black powder 45-70 loads with smokeless powder. My barrel is 4140cm one inch OD with a 209 breech plug. I have a Hankins adjustable bullet sizer expected for delivery today. I’m thinking 35gr of H322 with a wool wad should be close to what I want but that is just a wag so any suggestions would be welcome.
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Post by flattopusa on Mar 17, 2023 13:42:01 GMT -5
I have a old optima elete 45-70 conversion that I want to use my 405 cast lead bullet and I’m not looking for light speed but I want to duplicate the original black powder 45-70 loads with smokeless powder. My barrel is 4140cm one inch OD with a 209 breech plug. I have a Hankins adjustable bullet sizer expected for delivery today. I’m thinking 35gr of H322 with a wool wad should be close to what I want but that is just a wag so any suggestions would be welcome. I shoot a 44 cal (originally a 444 Marlin) in a CVA Hunter with Hanks DIS. I tried cast, lubed, gas checked bullets and it shot OK. Then I went to paper patched bullets and BINGO that did the trick! The important thing to remember is that bullets have to be sized properly for a slip fit in the bore (mine are sized .417 for a .417 groove diameter, in a .429 bore), and the bullets need to be of an alloy that will obturate when fired with the load you use.....the lighter the load the softer the alloy must be. I shoot a BHN 11/12 alloy, with 59 grains of Reloader-7, and a Rem Lg Rifle Primer. I chrono the load at 2503 fps.....no leading of the bore and powder fouling is minimal.
There are those on here that can probably lead you in a better direction than I, with your rifle/load combo...but, my experience with the paper patched bullets has been very good.
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Post by YankeeReb on Mar 17, 2023 17:40:48 GMT -5
Today I used Hanks adjustable bullet die and all I can say is it’s easy to adjust and it’s awesome. I could size my cast .458 bullets with one pass through the die. I didn’t get a chance to work up a smokeless load but I did shoot it with American pioneer powder and it seemed to shoot well. I didn’t have a target set up but I shot into a snow bank and it looked like the bullets hit in the same spot. When the snow melts and the mud dries up I’ll have a chance to do some serious target shooting and work up a smokeless load with heavy lead.
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Post by flattopusa on Mar 17, 2023 18:38:04 GMT -5
I am glad that you are shooting cast bullets...keep us posted!!!
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Post by transyank on Mar 18, 2023 5:35:34 GMT -5
Interesting show us and tells more??
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Post by YankeeReb on Mar 18, 2023 5:49:49 GMT -5
This last batch of.458 bullets I cast was from old lead pipe and is very soft, probably pure lead. The previous batch’s were from clip on wheel weights and they were hard and a bear to size even through a lee .454 sizer until I found the right lubricant. They did shoot well in my 45-70 though. I did try paper patching once but it was with rainier .429 240gr bullets, not really the proper size for a pp 45 cal bullet but they worked. I used old receipt paper that was .003 thick and wrapped the bullets three times and used a 50 cal wool wad with 50gr of imr 4198. I don’t have any more of those bullets so I need to get a new mold so do you have any suggestions of what mold I need?
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Post by flattopusa on Mar 18, 2023 7:17:48 GMT -5
The best way to pursue this:
1. You can use any alloy that will shoot in your gun with your load. I prefer softer alloys for hunting (BHN 8 to 15) depending on the powder charge.
2. You can use a bullet with or without lube grooves for paper patching. If you are shooting at greater distances than 200 to 250 yards a bullet without lube grooves is more aerodynamic/accurate. You can choose a mold from Accurate Molds (email Tom and tell him what you need) for that purpose. The mold should cast a bullet that is a bit larger (.002 to .004) than your groove diameter (not bore diameter), this will give you some fudge room when you cast different alloys. For stiff charges of powder I prefer a gas check or a wad, for light charges of smokeless or black powder a plain base will do. You want a flat base bullet NOT a hollow base bullet for the higher fps/pressures of a SML.
3. Cast your bullets and run them through Hanks sizer with very little lube (wipe the lube off of the bullets...they must be clean for the fitting and patching process) until they slip fit in your bore (you can seat the bullet into the muzzle with slight thumb pressure feeling just a bit of resistance).
4. Once you have that perfect fit you can paper patch the bullets. You can patch wet or dry....sometimes that makes all the difference when it comes to accuracy. You can use any paper for patching but I suggest you use 9 pound onion skin paper from Buffalo Arms and the wrap should be tight, no wrinkles, and the seam of the wrap should match perfectly. Take no more than two wraps on your slip fit sized bullets.
5. Once the bullet is patched and dry I put a thin coating of PURE carnuba wax on the bullet and let it dry. Then I GENTLY send the bullet through the sizer one more time and the bullet with patch should be a perfect fit for your bore. Wipe the carnuba wax with a soft cloth (the bullet/patch will look like it is polished) and you are ready to start working up a load. No lube is necessary and your bore will be lead free no matter how hard you push your bullets.
6. If the patch is separating from the bullet as it leaves the muzzle (it will be on the ground in front of your shooting bench) you know you have done everything right. With a good load the cast/patched bullets will be just as accurate as a jacketed bullet and they are devastating on game when you have all your ducks in a row.
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Post by YankeeReb on Mar 19, 2023 11:41:50 GMT -5
I think I found the recipe for what I wanted. This morning I sized five 405gr bullets and worked up a load with imr 4198 and have it hitting the same as my 38gr imr 4759 with 300gr bullets. I can load the 405 gr bullets with ease and no swabbing required so I am a happy camper 😁 I will try the paper patched bullets in the future though.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Mar 19, 2023 13:56:34 GMT -5
Take a look at Hodgdons 5744 45-70 405-460gr load data. There are several from mild to "modern rifle". The only thing is its not full case load or they dont state that it is. So comparing pressure is a guesstimate unless someone can run Quickload.
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Post by YankeeReb on Mar 19, 2023 15:22:43 GMT -5
I was concerned about the faster powders with no air space is why I considered h322 because they had data for a 450 marlin with a compressed load. I have a lot if imr4198 is why I decided to give it a try and it worked well. I’ll probably try some other powders for kicks though.
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Post by Sideshow on Mar 20, 2023 0:25:15 GMT -5
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Post by YankeeReb on Mar 20, 2023 5:49:05 GMT -5
It is interesting. I would like to have the molds for some of those bullets.
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Post by YankeeReb on Mar 20, 2023 5:58:25 GMT -5
Take a look at Hodgdons 5744 45-70 405-460gr load data. There are several from mild to "modern rifle". The only thing is its not full case load or they dont state that it is. So comparing pressure is a guesstimate unless someone can run Quickload.
aa5744 can spike really high with heavy bullets with no air space. An example is the high pressure 45 colt round with only 18.8gr of 5744 with a 395gr lead bullet is just about touching 30k psi and it still has a little air space. I have 5744 but I decided against for those reasons.
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Post by YankeeReb on Mar 22, 2023 10:21:10 GMT -5
The best way to pursue this: 1. You can use any alloy that will shoot in your gun with your load. I prefer softer alloys for hunting (BHN 8 to 15) depending on the powder charge. 2. You can use a bullet with or without lube grooves for paper patching. If you are shooting at greater distances than 200 to 250 yards a bullet without lube grooves is more aerodynamic/accurate. You can choose a mold from Accurate Molds (email Tom and tell him what you need) for that purpose. The mold should cast a bullet that is a bit larger (.002 to .004) than your groove diameter (not bore diameter), this will give you some fudge room when you cast different alloys. For stiff charges of powder I prefer a gas check or a wad, for light charges of smokeless or black powder a plain base will do. You want a flat base bullet NOT a hollow base bullet for the higher fps/pressures of a SML. 3. Cast your bullets and run them through Hanks sizer with very little lube (wipe the lube off of the bullets...they must be clean for the fitting and patching process) until they slip fit in your bore (you can seat the bullet into the muzzle with slight thumb pressure feeling just a bit of resistance). 4. Once you have that perfect fit you can paper patch the bullets. You can patch wet or dry....sometimes that makes all the difference when it comes to accuracy. You can use any paper for patching but I suggest you use 9 pound onion skin paper from Buffalo Arms and the wrap should be tight, no wrinkles, and the seam of the wrap should match perfectly. Take no more than two wraps on your slip fit sized bullets. 5. Once the bullet is patched and dry I put a thin coating of PURE carnuba wax on the bullet and let it dry. Then I GENTLY send the bullet through the sizer one more time and the bullet with patch should be a perfect fit for your bore. Wipe the carnuba wax with a soft cloth (the bullet/patch will look like it is polished) and you are ready to start working up a load. No lube is necessary and your bore will be lead free no matter how hard you push your bullets. 6. If the patch is separating from the bullet as it leaves the muzzle (it will be on the ground in front of your shooting bench) you know you have done everything right. With a good load the cast/patched bullets will be just as accurate as a jacketed bullet and they are devastating on game when you have all your ducks in a row. I’m sizing my bullets just as you described. So can I use the bullet I’m using for paper patching ?
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Post by flattopusa on Mar 22, 2023 10:45:26 GMT -5
Yes...two wraps of 9 pound onion skin paper and then it through the sizer one more time and the fit should be perfect. If you have any issues let me know.
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billc
New Member
Posts: 36
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Post by billc on Mar 22, 2023 14:48:17 GMT -5
Take a look at Hodgdons 5744 45-70 405-460gr load data. There are several from mild to "modern rifle". The only thing is its not full case load or they dont state that it is. So comparing pressure is a guesstimate unless someone can run Quickload.
I shoot 5744 in an original 1873 Trapdoor 45-70. I put a veggie wad on top of the power because there is a lot space remaining in the case with a Trapdoor load.
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Post by Sideshow on Apr 9, 2023 8:04:04 GMT -5
Take a look at Hodgdons 5744 45-70 405-460gr load data. There are several from mild to "modern rifle". The only thing is its not full case load or they dont state that it is. So comparing pressure is a guesstimate unless someone can run Quickload.
aa5744 can spike really high with heavy bullets with no air space. An example is the high pressure 45 colt round with only 18.8gr of 5744 with a 395gr lead bullet is just about touching 30k psi and it still has a little air space. I have 5744 but I decided against for those reasons. You may want to look up online Gordons Reloading Tool . Its alot like Quickloads if you dont have that . Hope this helps.....
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