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Post by jeepeater on Mar 4, 2023 21:12:46 GMT -5
So, I went to shoot my .45 today. Jeff did the barreled action, it’s a Mesa/Brux #17 26” 1:20 in a HS Precision PST 035. It’s not a new build, and had been shot a few hundred times with various loads and powders. I’d been getting a buddies rig dialed, similar setup, basically just an inch longer barrel and a McMillan Game Warden stock. Shot his rig to get it dialed in to 600, then pulled mine out to shoot. I’d shot mine a few weeks ago, then put it away. Usually before I put mine away, I’ll run a brush down the barrel, or I’ll brush it before I load the next time out. Today I failed to run a brush down the bore, the 325 Pittman AM started hard, went to a hard 2 hand full weight push with the collapsible rod, and stopped about 3” short of the witness mark. Now, I’ve had hammer downs before, but this one was different. I tried to bang it down by hitting against the shooting bench with very little progress, and eventually bent the collapsible ramrod top section. I straitened the rod and smacked it a few times with a hammer. Now I have a collapsible ramrod with the spin jag stuck on the bullet.
It wouldn’t be so bad, but of course there was a crowd watching as I cussed and banged, trying to get something to give.
So, now I’ve got a puller ordered, but lesson learned on ALWAYS brushing the cruddy residue before loading. Last powder used was 105 gr. of H4895 with 325 Pittman AM. I know it gets crusty after sitting, I’ve just never had it get that bad.
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Post by ballistic on Mar 4, 2023 22:29:10 GMT -5
1st off my sentiments to you. I’ve been there before myself. And my issue happened hunting which is worse -my opinion. Brushing doesn’t work all the time -depends on the humidity. Sometimes you have to brush just before you load and sometimes it’s right after you’ve shot. Could also be the temps that you’re shooting in vs when you last shot. Is it possibly warmer now? Just asking as some areas are starting to warm up now. My cold weather sizing takes a mallet to get down the tube when temps get to 70 on the barrel. And sometimes these already sized bullets slowly return or expand with time. Running a bullet through the die another time might be the ticket. When I stuck my 3 piece collapsible ramrod to the bullet -I pulled the breechplug and then used my solid rod with small taps to beat everything back out through the muzzle. Hopefully the above will give you some ideas on what’s going on. Take good notes so you can reference back on them. My muzzleloaders have 5 seasons on sizes of bullets to fit the bores. I size for 3 of them and need to do 2 more- but I shoot year round from super hot to single digit temps. . Another way to verify is to completely clean the bore and test the bullet for fit. I hope you find the “why” and figure it out the “how” to address it. I know you will.
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Post by jeepeater on Mar 4, 2023 22:45:50 GMT -5
1st off my sentiments to you. I’ve been there before myself. And my issue happened hunting which is worse -my opinion. Brushing doesn’t work all the time -depends on the humidity. Sometimes you have to brush just before you load and sometimes it’s right after you’ve shot. Could also be the temps that you’re shooting in vs when you last shot. Is it possibly warmer now? Just asking as some areas are starting to warm up now. My cold weather sizing takes a mallet to get down the tube when temps get to 70 on the barrel. And sometimes these already sized bullets slowly return or expand with time. Running a bullet through the die another time might be the ticket. When I stuck my 3 piece collapsible ramrod to the bullet -I pulled the breechplug and then used my solid rod with small taps to beat everything back out through the muzzle. Hopefully the above will give you some ideas on what’s going on. Take good notes so you can reference back on them. My muzzleloaders have 5 seasons on sizes of bullets to fit the bores. I size for 3 of them and need to do 2 more- but I shoot year round from super hot to single digit temps. . Another way to verify is to completely clean the bore and test the bullet for fit. I hope you find the “why” and figure it out the “how” to address it. I know you will. It was warm today (mid 70’s) and close to 80% humidity. I sized 15 bullets yesterday when temps were mid 50’s, but I didn’t check bullet fit to bore because I was in a hurry. The die was still set from colder temps during hunting season. I know, that was my 1st mistake in this fiasco. At least I could have fought it at home with better tools for the job. I have no doubt the warmer temperature today played a role, as did a dirty bore and high humidity. I just wish I would have checked fit when I sized yesterday, and of course ran a brush in the bore. The funny thing is, while I was cussing and pounding, my buddy was putting a brush on to run down his bore. So, at least he got something from my failure. Lol I’ll get it figured out, and at least now I’ll have a proper pulling setup for when things go wrong.
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Post by Sideshow on Mar 5, 2023 13:30:28 GMT -5
Awh Man jeepeater thats a DRAG !!! So sorry to hear this !!! Ive stuck a couple and its No Fun !!! I think youre doing the right thing by purchaseing a puller though . The barrel is worth protecting !!! Ive stuck them but managed to resist the urge to beat them down . Thankfully so as removal wasnt real difficult with a 3/8 aluminum rod 48" long 1 piece from the breech end . A Home Depot purchase . Seems to me with even a aluminum rod the chance to ding lands with a flat spot or worse is Very Real if not very carefull !!! I wraped the bullet end with electrical tape to help center it in there but its still dangerous . B.F. & F.I. has taught me over the years to avoid that approach !!! My wallet was always the 2nd blow delivered.....!!!
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Post by jeepeater on Mar 5, 2023 20:23:47 GMT -5
Awh Man jeepeater thats a DRAG !!! So sorry to hear this !!! Ive stuck a couple and its No Fun !!! I think youre doing the right thing by purchaseing a puller though . The barrel is worth protecting !!! Ive stuck them but managed to resist the urge to beat them down . Thankfully so as removal wasnt real difficult with a 3/8 aluminum rod 48" long 1 piece from the breech end . A Home Depot purchase . Seems to me with even an aluminum rod the chance to ding lands with a flat spot or worse is Very Real if not very carefull !!! I wraped the bullet end with electrical tape to help center it in there but its still dangerous . B.F. & F.I. has taught me over the years to avoid that approach !!! My wallet was always the 2nd blow delivered.....!!! I’m thinking pulling is about the only way at this point. It was within 3” of seated when I gave the ramrod a few sharp raps with a small hammer. I probably toasted the jag and collapsible ramrod in the process, plus stuck the jag to the bullet. The bullet is somewhat obturated at this point so drilling the center out should relieve it and make an easy pull. I definitely don’t want to damage the rifling trying to pound it back towards the muzzle, so hopefully the puller does the trick. I’m still mad that a simple brush or even a patch down the barrel would have avoided the situation, at least I think it would. I’ll find out just how those bullets fit when I get the stuck one out.
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Post by ballistic on Mar 5, 2023 21:18:44 GMT -5
In regards to your jag/bullet/ramrod that’s stuck in the barrel. Do you have the rear cleaning bore guide that Hank sells ? It threads into your breach plug threads. It looks like it’s built really well.
If you pull your plug and dump the powder (your going to have to do this anyway) you could use some kroil/wd40 or similar and let it soak from behind.
If you have a solid ramrod a few sharp taps from the breech side on the bullet will likely release the jag from the bullet. You can then use the solid rod to push the bullet from the muzzle side down and out the breech side. (It will likely take a few taps) Try and get your combo cold if possible -that will help as much as anything else. I seriously doubt that you have engraved your bullet into the riflings. I have beat rounds down the tube on hot days with a tremendous amount of force with solid range rods and a big hammer and haven’t seen hardly a mark on the bullet. Bullets are much tougher than you think. In fact - I give you at 99% chance that your jacketed bullet looks almost like new when you separate it from the jag. Good enough to shoot it and hit the bullseye. 3 piece collapsible jags are not made for hammer time- they just aren’t built for it. I’ve ruined a few hammering and should have ruined more. I have stuck more than a few bullets to the jag but the ramrod was solid. Your jag should also survive this issue. Some fine grit sandpaper wrapped around the tip of a bullet and 5 min of work should put you back in business. You can also use some shoe polish and a Qtip to polish it and leave a layer of wax.
I think the only time a bullet puller is required is when a double charge occurs or you don’t have a breech plug. This is just my opinion. I’ve helped several remedy this same issue and haven’t damaged the barrel or the threads. I don’t have hanks tool - had my machinest build a rear bore guide for cleaning that fits the 9/16 plug. It also works really well for the 5/8 plug. In a pinch - you could use a rifle bore guide as long as the hole is big enough for the rod. If you want to PM me - I’ll call you or send you pics on how this is done.
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Post by sew on Mar 6, 2023 7:55:08 GMT -5
Since I exclusively full-size whether 4085 or 402 bullets, fouling and temp changes seem to affect the fit even more. I’ve had stuck bullets a number of times. I use a very stiff 36 cal diameter rod from the breech to remove the bullet. Occasionally I need to use a plastic hammer to loosen the bullet. I use Hank’s screw in breech protector.
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Post by buckeye68 on Mar 6, 2023 12:49:45 GMT -5
With it being 3” from your witness mark it sounds like it could be double loaded.
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Post by jeepeater on Mar 6, 2023 18:44:50 GMT -5
With it being 3” from your witness mark it sounds like it could be double loaded. Definitely not double loaded. I just shot it a few weeks ago and shot every load I had available that day at the range. The only time mine is at risk for a double load is during hunting season. Even then, I check it periodically against a witness mark on the ramrod to double check to load hasn’t come unseated during transport.
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Post by jeepeater on Mar 6, 2023 18:48:46 GMT -5
Look at it this way guys, I’ll be able to give feedback on Jeff’s double load puller. I know I could drive it back out the muzzle, but I’m going to resist that urge and try the fancy puller to see how well it works.
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Post by hillbill on Mar 6, 2023 20:28:30 GMT -5
It works very well, just used the original last week on a double load for a friend, had him up and running in about 10 minutes.
A few years back a gent from NC was at one of the shoots and double loaded his gun, his comment was "I'm done, guess I'm headed back home" I pulled out the bullet puller and in about 10 minutes he was clear and back in business, he thought it was the best thing ever, saved his day and a long trip. Never travel without one, it could save your entire trip.
a couple years back a guy brought me a gun that was double loaded, he had hammered on it so bad that both bullets were completely engraved, the bullet puller just stripped the lead out and didn't budge. I had to drill that one out.
moral of the story is if you double load you gun, don't try to drive it out, you are wasting your time.
The whole reason I invented the puller to start with, out of sheer necessity, yes anyone is capable of a double load.
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Post by ballistic on Mar 6, 2023 21:57:14 GMT -5
Look at it this way guys, I’ll be able to give feedback on Jeff’s double load puller. I know I could drive it back out the muzzle, but I’m going to resist that urge and try the fancy puller to see how well it works. Are you able to pull the bullet from its base from the breech end with this puller? Or I should ask -are you going to pull it this way ?
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Post by jeepeater on Mar 6, 2023 22:32:52 GMT -5
Look at it this way guys, I’ll be able to give feedback on Jeff’s double load puller. I know I could drive it back out the muzzle, but I’m going to resist that urge and try the fancy puller to see how well it works. Are you able to pull the bullet from its base from the breech end with this puller? Or I should ask -are you going to pull it this way ? I plan on pulling it from the breech like it’s been double loaded. That’s the way it’s designed to be used from what I gather. Now, I’m not sure it has the reach due to the bullet being about 3” off of my witness mark for a 325 Aeromax over 105 gr. of 4895. If it doesn’t have the reach, I reckon it’s back to pounding it out the muzzle since it’s got a ramrod semi-permanently attached to the bullet. Lol
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Post by jeepeater on Mar 6, 2023 22:44:12 GMT -5
It works very well, just used the original last week on a double load for a friend, had him up and running in about 10 minutes.
A few years back a gent from NC was at one of the shoots and double loaded his gun, his comment was "I'm done, guess I'm headed back home" I pulled out the bullet puller and in about 10 minutes he was clear and back in business, he thought it was the best thing ever, saved his day and a long trip. Never travel without one, it could save your entire trip.
a couple years back a guy brought me a gun that was double loaded, he had hammered on it so bad that both bullets were completely engraved, the bullet puller just stripped the lead out and didn't budge. I had to drill that one out.
moral of the story is if you double load you gun, don't try to drive it out, you are wasting your time.
The whole reason I invented the puller to start with, out of sheer necessity, yes anyone is capable of a double load.
It definitely would have saved my day. The funny thing is, a friend of mine went to see Jeff to pick up a ML back in November. I was asking him when he got back how things went, and what other goodies he let Jeff talk him into. He told me he’d bought one of the double load pullers and I kinda laughed. Even though I’m not double loaded now, I have done it, and have seen it done by others. If nothing else, it’s a tool I’ll have in the range box for future use at the range or in the shop. On a side note, I also snickered when he said he bought one of the loading blocks. The other day at the bench it became apparent it’s easy to get your loads mixed up with a buddies loads. One of those fancy little blocks would be handy too!
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Post by jeepeater on Mar 8, 2023 17:52:42 GMT -5
UPDATE: I’ll start by apologizing for being adamant that it was not double loaded!
It was in fact double loaded, and had it not been for the witness mark on the ramrod I would have definitely tried to shoot it. I cannot for the life of me remember loading it, and don’t have a clue when I did. The puller works great, very simple to drill the base of the bullet with the supplied drill attachment that goes on a rod that rotates in a guide that’s sized to fit in the receiver to center the drill on the bullet base. Simply change out the drill for the threaded screw, screw it in the hole that was just drilled in the base of the bullet, put the slide on the rod and slap hammer the bullet out the breech. A few light slides and the bullet eased right out. A few taps on the ramrod that was stuck on the bullet, and it came right out the breech as well.
MARK THAT RAMROD!
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Post by jeepeater on Mar 8, 2023 17:57:20 GMT -5
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Post by hillbill on Mar 8, 2023 18:10:08 GMT -5
Jeff’s rendition is a little fancier than the original My action tube is delrin, the rest is all brass but exact same principle
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Post by buckeye68 on Mar 8, 2023 20:30:54 GMT -5
Glad the puller worked great for you but I’m really really glad you had a witness mark on your ramrod. Good catch!!
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Post by hillbill on Mar 8, 2023 20:33:46 GMT -5
I made this back when I had a .375 and it is turned down to fit that size bore but will work in .40s & .45s as well the small thumb knob on the slide is used as a depth gauge so you know how far to drill and when you bottom the puller out it has been used several times and has worked every time except when the dude hammered on his bullets from both ends. for the guys that don't have one? you might want to consider adding it to your load box, it can save a hunt. My buddy double loaded his gun the day before Illinois gun season this year but caught it with his witness mark, he called me in a sheer panic but there was nothing I could do for him until he got his gun home, he ended up hunting with a loaned slug gun.
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Post by jeepeater on Mar 8, 2023 21:40:38 GMT -5
Glad the puller worked great for you but I’m really really glad you had a witness mark on your ramrod. Good catch!! Good call on the double load. I should have known with it being about 3” off witness, and the fact that it wasn’t moving anymore with pretty sharp raps from a hammer. I’ve had enough hammer downs to know it should’ve moved, but I was also positive it wasn’t already loaded. Definitely glad I respected the witness mark.
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