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Post by brianb on Dec 14, 2022 14:44:26 GMT -5
Well, I was finally able to get my CVA Scout. I have sent the barrel to Jeff and have gotten it back(super fast turn around). I have 275 grain Pittman Accumax bullets, IMR 4198 powder and Federal magnum rifle primers. My gun has Jeff's HIS ignition and his tactical muzzlebreak. My question is, when sizing the bullets should I remove the muzzlebreak. New to SML, very experienced in reloading and load development. Thank you for any advice.
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klook
Junior Member
Posts: 85
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Post by klook on Dec 14, 2022 15:18:55 GMT -5
I did, it made it easier to get a feel for starting them. Check to see if yours are tight and then fall with very little pushing. Seems to be a thing with these Scouts.
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Post by blackpowder72 on Dec 14, 2022 15:25:25 GMT -5
I remove the brake if it's the first time sizing with a new gun or I switch bullets. After that I load through the funnel. All the Scouts I've had like loose fitting bullets. Just don't get them so loose they move off the power charge.
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Post by brianb on Dec 14, 2022 16:18:41 GMT -5
Thank you very much for the responses
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Post by SURESHOT on Dec 15, 2022 10:12:39 GMT -5
I remove the brake if it's the first time sizing with a new gun or I switch bullets. After that I load through the funnel. All the Scouts I've had like loose fitting bullets. Just don't get them so loose they move off the power charge. With these CVA SCOUTS I also remove the brake, fit the bullet some what loose as the barrel will foul after a few shots. I also use a WOOL wad setting on top of the powder charge,( purchased from Pittman Bullets) its pushed down thru the funnel underneath the bullet. It really helped out with the accuracy with the many scouts I have helped set up for others. The bullet stays on the charge, but when loaded for hunting I do recheck.
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Post by brianb on Dec 15, 2022 12:00:10 GMT -5
Thanks Sureshot. I purchased the wool wads and the bullets at the same time from Pittman. This will be the first time that I have tried to smooth size any bullet, so I am a little unsure of myself.
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Post by SURESHOT on Dec 15, 2022 13:04:40 GMT -5
Thanks Sureshot. I purchased the wool wads and the bullets at the same time from Pittman. This will be the first time that I have tried to smooth size any bullet, so I am a little unsure of myself. I can understand, my first time with either the bolt or break action I too was cautious with the sizing, swage it down (I use the Pittman 275 I push them thru the die 2/3 times rotating 90 degrees ) until you can push it down with fingers until silver tip is above barrel , (muzzle brake removed) more then likely it will be tighter at the muzzle and less friction going down or to powder charge. As you know when fitting bullet to bore I remove the breech plug them replace it after being satisfied with the fit After a few firings as I mentioned the barrel will foul and the fit will be with slightly more restriction not much tho , if to tight go another notch on the die. If you have to start over reset your die with expander (mark where your previous setting was and start 2/4 marks from that point first) It's not that bad, let us know how it turns out,,,,
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Post by brianb on Dec 15, 2022 13:11:39 GMT -5
Thanks again Sureshot. I'm off tomorrow, I plan to put the whole package together and get to the range and see what this gun can do.
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Post by sew on Dec 15, 2022 14:07:29 GMT -5
I use 200g XTPs to foul my 40s and 250g XTPs for the 45. Some powders really foul (H4895 for me) while others foul much less (VV powders, H322, 2015).
So, I shoot at least 5 shots and then size for proper fit in that fouled condition. Even then in my heavier loaded, large 40 with 4895, I run a nylon bristle brush between shots - means I need to get on the stick and come up with a different powder and load. But, get to a stabilized, fouled condition and then size to that amount of fouling. Some bullets spring back . Some people run these thru 3x and some do that and once again the next day. I’ve found that Furys and annealed Copper bullets don’t have spring back. I don’t see spring back as a negative, just a factor. I shoot both Hammers and AccuMaxes so obviously that’s not a problem to me.
Size to your seasoned, fouled barrel.
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Post by Sideshow on Dec 18, 2022 8:06:00 GMT -5
I use 200g XTPs to foul my 40s and 250g XTPs for the 45. Some powders really foul (H4895 for me) while others foul much less (VV powders, H322, 2015). So, I shoot at least 5 shots and then size for proper fit in that fouled condition. Even then in my heavier loaded, large 40 with 4895, I run a nylon bristle brush between shots - means I need to get on the stick and come up with a different powder and load. But, get to a stabilized, fouled condition and then size to that amount of fouling. Some bullets spring back . Some people run these thru 3x and some do that and once again the next day. I’ve found that Furys and annealed Copper bullets don’t have spring back. I don’t see spring back as a negative, just a factor. I shoot both Hammers and AccuMaxes so obviously that’s not a problem to me. Size to your seasoned, fouled barrel. SEW..... How do You establish your full form fit ?? Do you have a particular way you do it for your 40s ?? You seem to be who uses it most often here to hunt with lately and its never really been discussed or talked about before . Id bet besides me others would find what you would share very usefull too .
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Post by hillbill on Dec 18, 2022 9:11:51 GMT -5
Full sized fit is not much different from smooth form except for the sizing process itself. Most full size bullets will fit snug just because of full contact inside the bore but can be made to fit as loose as your gun likes.
I have found that when full forming it helps to rotate the bullet on different grooves to get a uniform fit, this way no matter where the bullet lands on the grooves it fits well.
I use either clear plastic tubing or shrink tubing pushed down on the bullet to hold it with and another to push from the bottom rotating very slowly until I find the groove, it takes some practice but very doable, it gets 3 passes rotating on every pass hitting a different groove each time for uniform sizing.
sew might do his differently but in the end it's whatever gets a consistent result. On mono's they go thru the die much easier if annealed which is a process in itself.
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Post by Sideshow on Dec 18, 2022 9:33:31 GMT -5
Thank you !!!
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Post by sew on Dec 18, 2022 10:02:10 GMT -5
Annealing. In a very lowly lit room, I have an old 21” lawnmower blade across a pan filled with chilled apple cider vinegar. I line the bullets, on their bases all along the blade and heat to a uniform dark, dull red, making sure that the base of the bullet is uniformly red also. Then I flip it into the chilled vinegar. I’m awaiting citric acid, which is reportedly better than the ac vinegar.
Sizing. I’m likely the least qualified to give advice here, but this is what I do. Foul the barrel with at least 5 shots and run a nylon bristle brush thru once. Lub my annealed copper bullets or my AccuMaxes with Imperial Sizing Wax and run my bullets through once, for the annealed bullets or 3x for the AccuMaxes (spring back). . Initially, I did the tube and rotated as Bill does. In neither 40 did I find an advantage , at least that I could notice (Brux and RC barrels). I anneal, Bill doesn’t - that might make a difference.
Fouled barrel. So important to size to how your barrel will be. H322 in my lite rifle is pretty clean, while H4895 is very dirty in my heavy 40. Nylon brush between every shot on the heavy rifle, every other shot in the lite. I’m planning on a VV powder for each rifle or maybe 2015 for the lite rifle.
My velocities are much lower than Bill’s making an annealed bullet likely more advantageous for me than for Bill .
One thing is for certain, there is no one size fits all in smokeless MLing, be it monolithic/ traditional jacketed, smooth vs full sized, DI vs Bushing, annealing or not.
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Post by Sideshow on Dec 18, 2022 10:19:19 GMT -5
Thanks Sew !!! Yes i see theres all kinds of room for some experimentation with muzzleloaders in general yet . Especially with 40s this is a necessity it seems , and for me thats a good thing . Im just wired like that . I love the caliber . I thank you and hillbill both for putting this full form info in a thread . Great job guys !!!
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Post by ballistic on Dec 18, 2022 10:51:28 GMT -5
Sideshow I have shot enough cutting edge bullets to wear a .416 barrel out. Cutting edge bullets high Bc in .408 and .416 have (my opinion) the annoying seal band for a muzzleloader. I asked them to make me a batch without the bands and received a solid ‘NO” even after explaining the marketing side for the muzzleloader crowd. I shot the 340 Mth up to the 500 grain lazers. Overall- the BC values were lower than advertised but still decent. I annealed but had copper fouling and believe the band caused most of it. I could always feel the band engage the riflings. Machined a few off and loading was much better. I could use flat base or rebate based Rocky Mountain bullets that were heavier by 50 grains than the cutting edge at 200-300 fps higher speeds - I believe the boat tail was creating a spike in pressure -when machined off speeds would be equal to flat base rounds. I was very skeptical about the high Bc ratings of Kyle’s aeromax .40 cal bullets. I’ve never seen a flat base in the centerfire world that made .500 Bc. Parker bullets high Bc claims didn’t come close as tested. So what the heck-tried them in my friends .45 and they held true out to 800 yards. And the .40 cal 312 and 325 aeromax also have held true to shots past 1000. I know they aren’t mono rounds but full sizing has been really annoying for me compared to smooth. Others do well with it. Kyle’s flat based aeromax in .40 cal at 325 grains will outperform ( Kyle’s Bc values that are spot on ) the cutting edge 340/375 Mth at similar velocities. I shoot routinely past 1000 yards so this won’t matter to most on this board. Even though the above sounds mostly negative on the cutting edge - they performed extremely well on elk. The petals on the front broke off (creating large wound channels) and every round passed through including breaking big bones in both shoulders. If you push them fast - expect copper fouling if you anneal them. Slower you won’t. They are a copper bullet that behaves closer to a lead core and I really liked that but passed through every time. Maybe you can talk them into making some without the bands - and a rebated boat tail…….JMO They make muzzleloader specific bullets but they are mostly made for sabots.
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Post by Sideshow on Dec 18, 2022 11:34:24 GMT -5
Sideshow I have shot enough cutting edge bullets to wear a .416 barrel out. Cutting edge bullets high Bc in .408 and .416 have (my opinion) the annoying seal band for a muzzleloader. I asked them to make me a batch without the bands and received a solid ‘NO” even after explaining the marketing side for the muzzleloader crowd. I shot the 340 Mth up to the 500 grain lazers. Overall- the BC values were lower than advertised but still decent. I annealed but had copper fouling and believe the band caused most of it. I could always feel the band engage the riflings. Machined a few off and loading was much better. I could use flat base or rebate based Rocky Mountain bullets that were heavier by 50 grains than the cutting edge at 200-300 fps higher speeds - I believe the boat tail was creating a spike in pressure -when machined off speeds would be equal to flat base rounds. I was very skeptical about the high Bc ratings of Kyle’s aeromax .40 cal bullets. I’ve never seen a flat base in the centerfire world that made .500 Bc. Parker bullets high Bc claims didn’t come close as tested. So what the heck-tried them in my friends .45 and they held true out to 800 yards. And the .40 cal 312 and 325 aeromax also have held true to shots past 1000. I know they aren’t mono rounds but full sizing has been really annoying for me compared to smooth. Others do well with it. Kyle’s flat based aeromax in .40 cal at 325 grains will outperform ( Kyle’s Bc values that are spot on ) the cutting edge 340/375 Mth at similar velocities. I shoot routinely past 1000 yards so this won’t matter to most on this board. Even though the above sounds mostly negative on the cutting edge - they performed extremely well on elk. The petals on the front broke off (creating large wound channels) and every round passed through including breaking big bones in both shoulders. If you push them fast - expect copper fouling if you anneal them. Slower you won’t. They are a copper bullet that behaves closer to a lead core and I really liked that but passed through every time. Maybe you can talk them into making some without the bands - and a rebated boat tail…….JMO They make muzzleloader specific bullets but they are mostly made for sabots. Ballistic this info means more to me than you know . As you can see i deleted my question about them . Various reasons . Ive been toying with a couple of ideas and became quite curious . Tom Post of Swinglock shot them and still does i believe . I cant see myself shooting as far as you must . I practice Up To 400 but not always so far w/ mzl . A 250gr would easily take care of 99% of shots id have at distance i think till now . Buckeye68s 40 is a perfect example of this and Sews too with a bit more drop . I found a big buck honey hole in N. Michigan farm country last year and i cant get closer as i would prefer to . Its often Very Windy up there and more bc would be great . My 45 is barrel nut which will eventually go lighter than a #17 , the 40 is apart to go lighter , and the 416 is also a lighter build parts pile as yet . Im fishing for now on ideas . I have a few pretty deviant ones of my own that a lighter build Can handle . Top Secret for now . Thanks for the reply ..
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Post by ballistic on Dec 18, 2022 14:44:51 GMT -5
Sideshow We should probably pm so we can talk in detail on the .416 or cutting edge bullets w the seal band. I’ve talked to Tom post on several occasions as well. I think every shooter has a threshold for accuracy with any rifle and it becomes greater with a muzzleloader. I can shoot a hard kicking setup decently from a bench. Out in the field -I can’t. Bipod legs sticking in the ground - bags or no bags for rear rests-lots of other reasons. My 16 lb (muzzy .40 cal) has limited me to 3100 fps max shooting 325 grain bullets and 3000 fps is better. 350 grain at 2900 fps might be past my personal limits with that same gun. I can do it but have to hold on to the gun tight and really preload the stock into my shoulder. Problem is I still get excited when i see a nice buck or bull elk. And hanging on tight shows that excitement with lots of shaking in the crosshairs- ok I’m weak in this area - and so are several of us. According to Nathan Wright of MBM muzzlebrakes -He has said that the best of muzzlebrakes can’t overcome the weight of a bullet (not nearly as good with heavy bullets as lighter) That’s the reason he gave me as to why the 350 grain bullet at 2900 kicked much harder than the 325 at 3100. I am using a 5 port super beast gill brake that’s 1.250” OD so it’s a good representative brake. I’m sorry I’m so long winded on my posts. My point is you might want to consider a 250-275 grain bullet for your .40 if your building it light. The Bc of the 275 might work really well for the 400 yard shots you might encounter. If you went with heavy cutting edge bullets - the recoil will be stiff - even at lower velocities and the best of brakes. My .416 was 23 pounds for a reason. Not to offend anyone with the above on thresholds for accuracy - I just know my limits in the field and they are higher for other shooters. I’m getting older so heavy isn’t my friend either.
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Post by jims on Dec 18, 2022 18:03:51 GMT -5
A lot of good information given here.
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Post by SURESHOT on Dec 19, 2022 12:18:31 GMT -5
Thanks again Sureshot. I'm off tomorrow, I plan to put the whole package together and get to the range and see what this gun can do. Well, did you get it together and have time for the range?
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Post by hillbill on Dec 19, 2022 21:03:34 GMT -5
For most practical purposes in .40 caliber a 275 Accumax @ 2800+ will get the job done on my side of the Mississippi, relatively light recoil, great accuracy and good terminal performance. I have shot that load out to 1000 yds with some impressive accuracy out of a relatively light build. The 300 accu and 312 Aero do great as well but when pushed fairly quick you are starting to get into recoil with a light gun. As ballistic has stated, a .402-325 Aero is a great long range bullet but to reach it's potential a heavy gun is necessary or recoil will get nasty, even with the very best of brakes, step up the the 350 and things get amplified. From the 1760 gun @ 21.5 lbs recoil was very tolerable but how far can this old man tote that rig? NOT TOO FAR
As you can tell form those of us that shoot them, mono bullets can be a challenge, get them to shoot well and they are great but they can also be very frustrating.
I have had many guys ask me about .40 cal builds and I am blatantly honest every time, If you enjoy experimenting? Go for it, if not? build a .45 and don't look back. ballistic, sew and myself are experimenters, different birds I suppose, we enjoy being different?
I no longer anneal my mono bullets because back when I was playing with the .416 and cutting edge bullets I was getting pretty bad copper fouling, I attributed it to the soft annealed bullets? I could have been dead wrong? could have been the barrel, I purchased a Ultramag press and no longer had to anneal to get them thru the press. soon I hope to anneal some of the HAMMER'S and see how they do when pushed fairly fast? hopefully they will be fine.
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