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Post by dannoboone on Dec 5, 2022 18:13:06 GMT -5
I came across this article the other day: www.outdoorlife.com/articles/guns/2016/05/6-most-underrated-hunting-cartridges/?It listed the .25-06 as one of a dying breed. Wow. Back in the late '60's it was considered he__ on wheels, as the LGS owner described it to me. Couldn't consider him biased either, as he had a 50' wall of different makes and calibers. I got a Rem 700 in that caliber and was never disappointed. It took many a prairie dog with 75gr Hornady HP's and deer with 100gr Hornady SP's, all with great accuracy. To this day, the .25-06 is my favorite hunting round. There are other rounds in the list which I imagine others cannot believe are becoming extinct. Is it that the newest, badest, bestest are light years better, or have the manufacturers sold us newer stuff to increase their profits. After all, many rifles of one caliber will last a life time, so they make new calibers to sell more rifles!?! |
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Post by gd357 on Dec 5, 2022 19:25:16 GMT -5
I love my 25-06. Won't be without one going forward. Its a heck of a deer gun, and out to reasonable hunting distance its trajectory positively shames a lot of more modern rounds. There's a lot of deer that wish I never started shooting one.  Out of that list, I'd say the two in the worst shape are the .338 Federal and the 257 Roberts. The federal should be immensely popular, but it languishes in obscurity while a lot of duplicitous and extraneous cartridges get undeserved attention. JMHO gd |
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mitch
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Post by mitch on Dec 6, 2022 15:36:34 GMT -5
Mark and Sam just did an episode about newer vs. older cartridges.
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Post by fatfred on Dec 6, 2022 22:26:13 GMT -5
gd357. That was a great statement. There are not many new cartridges in the last 50 years that have bested the tried and true relics. And the guns from those days were so beautiful. Built with craftmanship as a standard.
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Post by 71yella2 on Dec 6, 2022 23:44:25 GMT -5
I have a 25-06, it was the first new rifle I ever bought myself back in 1997. I have shot deer from 40yds to 456yds and all died where they stood or within 40yds using 115 ballistic silvertips. Several hogs and a couple of predators also. I have many calibers alot bigger but this one is my pet. I know I can depend on it no matter what. I agree that the marketing drives most new stuff, they can't make money if people only got something new every once in a while. It's a constant pelting of "this is what you need", my dad fell for the creedmoor hype and got one. Took 5 different types of ammo to find one it would shoot better than 2" @ 100. He has since gone back to 30-06.
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Post by jims on Dec 7, 2022 7:44:59 GMT -5
I got a 25-06 in 1962 when I was 14. I still have it and it still has it. For my uses and ranges I do not need more.
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Post by gd357 on Dec 13, 2022 23:43:12 GMT -5
You know, this discussion has raised a few more questions as I think it over... If you consider that a lot of the newest cartridges have been given an "unfair advantage" with tighter chamber and throat tolerances, as well as being spec'd with a faster rate of twist, it seems to me that someone really missed the bus. Instead of altering casing dimensions to achieve something that's been around for decades (or in some cases, a century) wouldn't those resources have been better spent to improve existing cartridges? For example, Berger and Blackjack are now making .257 bullets in excess of 130 grains. Sounds like really good 25-06 territory to me. I expect another 25 caliber based on the .404 Jeffrey case forthcoming...  Even now, there are people playing with 257 prc wildcats. I know that we're on the ragged edge of "overbore" for 25 caliber, but isn't that what the .257 Weatherby was for? As far as the .264 cartridges go, the 6.5 Creedmoor was essentially a slightly slower version of the 260 Rem, and the 6.5x55. Imagine the impact if they had done the alterations to the 264 Win Mag... Even the 6.5 PRC still doesn't have the same capabilities. It took the 26 Nosler and the 6.5x300 Weatherby to make any real difference in trajectory. Kinda makes me wonder why the 264 WM had a rough life (7mm Rem Mag not withstanding). I could go into the 7mm's and further, but you get the point. They're selling new and "better" when they haven't really done anything that wasn't known for many decades by the shooting community. The NeedMore is here. No changing that.  Just really wish they'd spend time and resources to give us what we need. NOT what they want to sell us on. ESPECIALLY when components are at a premium... I'll get down off my soapbox now... gd |
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mitch
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Post by mitch on Dec 13, 2022 23:55:59 GMT -5
100% agreed, GD. I get riled up most every time I read some new breathless post about how awesome the latest wunderkind cartridge is, how much less drift and more downrange energy, etc, and really all they’ve done is used a faster twist rate. For example, I love the 22-250, and reading all the hype about the 224 Valkyrie just made my blood boil because it is just a wussier cartridge with a faster twist. Stop only making 22-250’s in only 1:14 /1:12, give it 1:8 or 1:7 and it blows the doors off it.
Incredibly frustrating when almost the entire new-cartridge-hype industry is built around the idea that the average reader is a moron who doesn’t know even rudimentary exterior ballistics. Even worse is that they’re probably right… :-(
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Post by mike on Dec 14, 2022 17:15:58 GMT -5
I sort of see the market: enthusiasts, wildcatters and the techies who NEED to stretch the boundaries of all the performance metrics as being the driving force for constant advancement. Then the production companies see an opportunity for profits and toss it to their marketing warriors to learn if the new "stuff" can be brought to market. It's the same with every sport, activity and recreational pursuit; the leaders are always destined to push all the boundaries thus creating constant technological advancement. Look what all us SPML guys are doing in our niche shooting class.
The very obvious benefit of the "short fat" cartridges phenomenon is achieving the same performance in a lighter shorter rifle for those who MUST shave ounces off their gear. All kinds of talk about the newer powders burning more efficiently in the fat cylinder of powder thus allowing lighter loads to achieve the same velocity. Technology drives the product and there will always be those who MUST HAVE the latest and greatest. I'm old so my collection includes .22 lr, .22 WMR, .22-250, .243, .270. 30-06 and .338. But at the same time I'm a gun, shooting and reloading enthusiast so I ended up adding a .17 MACH II, .25 WSSM and 300 WSM. And for legal/royalty issues the entire WSSM line is gone. The gun business is as fickle as any business especially with the constant attacks by the gun-hater organizations.
In the end the gun manufacturers will provide the market what they will pay for and constant technological advancement will keep pushing the American marketing machine to exploit the market.
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Post by fatfred on Dec 14, 2022 22:23:10 GMT -5
Mike,
Excellent post. There is no other explanation. It's not good or bad. It just is what it is. For the old timers including me, keep making what we have work. Maybe play with something new that makes some kind of sense. For the fun of it. Our owner says if you don't change you will cease to exist. Gun industry no different. Mike nailed it.
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Post by mike on Dec 15, 2022 0:44:05 GMT -5
At this stage of the game I'm not interested in adding anything to my collection, but I do enjoy reading about all the new stuff, science and the alleged benefits. Did any of you, thirty years ago, hear about 1,000 yard shots like they are nothing more than chip-shots? Made possible now by the synergistic effects of ELD bullets launched from short-fatty cases. How about the stats, fascinating, surrounding the recent team that connected on a 4.4 miles shot. Man has demonstrated a somewhat unique characteristic to constantly expand the envelope of every metric. Just think how far shooting science has come in such a short time. I think the first metallic cartridge case ammunition was invented in the 1870's, that's only 150 years ago. It's now possible to plunk down some serious cash for a matched rifle and scope, with ballistically calibrated reticle adjustment, and a beginner shooter, in one day, can connect on 1,000 yard shots. Can you imagine what our pioneer ancestors would think about 2020's shooting science and technology? Hollywood has made a lot of movies exploring this premise. haha
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Post by fatfred on Dec 15, 2022 6:12:44 GMT -5
Much progress on many fronts based on human nature and competition. It is the same progress that will eventually get us all nuked one day. Yikes!
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Post by mike on Dec 15, 2022 12:02:00 GMT -5
Much progress on many fronts based on human nature and competition. It is the same progress that will eventually get us all nuked one day. Yikes! Or the missile-defense technology to prevent us all from being nuked........... haha |
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Post by joelmoney on Dec 15, 2022 16:58:01 GMT -5
You know, this discussion has raised a few more questions as I think it over... If you consider that a lot of the newest cartridges have been given an "unfair advantage" with tighter chamber and throat tolerances, as well as being spec'd with a faster rate of twist, it seems to me that someone really missed the bus. Instead of altering casing dimensions to achieve something that's been around for decades (or in some cases, a century) wouldn't those resources have been better spent to improve existing cartridges? For example, Berger and Blackjack are now making .257 bullets in excess of 130 grains. Sounds like really good 25-06 territory to me. I expect another 25 caliber based on the .404 Jeffrey case forthcoming... Even now, there are people playing with 257 prc wildcats. I know that we're on the ragged edge of "overbore" for 25 caliber, but isn't that what the .257 Weatherby was for? As far as the .264 cartridges go, the 6.5 Creedmoor was essentially a slightly slower version of the 260 Rem, and the 6.5x55. Imagine the impact if they had done the alterations to the 264 Win Mag... Even the 6.5 PRC still doesn't have the same capabilities. It took the 26 Nosler and the 6.5x300 Weatherby to make any real difference in trajectory. Kinda makes me wonder why the 264 WM had a rough life (7mm Rem Mag not withstanding). I could go into the 7mm's and further, but you get the point. They're selling new and "better" when they haven't really done anything that wasn't known for many decades by the shooting community. The NeedMore is here. No changing that. Just really wish they'd spend time and resources to give us what we need. NOT what they want to sell us on. ESPECIALLY when components are at a premium... I'll get down off my soapbox now... gd What they have done is made tighter speced chambers, longer throats, and faster twist barrels to make an off the shelf rifle shoot like a custom rifle with hand loads. So for gun nerds like me they haven’t changed much. For some of my hunting partners they have changed a lot. GD I like your rant and agree with it. |
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Post by hillbill on Dec 15, 2022 20:04:08 GMT -5
I hunted with a .270 for many years, then the .7mm08, there have been lots of other rifles over the years but better? Na, just new or old and different.
It's mostly about marketing these days, when the 6.5 creed came out Hornady was a marketing genius by introducing good match and hunting ammo that was available over the counter in good quantities.
The caliber has sold like hot cakes, not because it was a better mousetrap but because of marketing.
The .260 rem and 6.5 Lapua are arguably just as good, some would say better in some respects.
They have used the same marketing campaign with the PRC line, big difference there is appealing to the long range crowd with long heavy for caliber bullets in a case designed for such, from what I see it's working for them, a better caliber? Maybe? different approach? definately.
Either way you look at it they are growing their market share by leaps and bounds and in the process we buy into it, hook, line and bullet.
Some of the new to us yesteryear loads are now becoming dinosaurs like their owners, will they go away completely?
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Post by fatfred on Dec 15, 2022 21:04:07 GMT -5
So many good posts. Almost everything developed becomes obsolete eventually. Sometimes it's obvious that something new is so much better than something we had back in the day. Extrapolate that. Why buy a Model T ford the way it was built when you can buy a Chevy 2500 HD? The cartridge game is fun to watch and read about but ya gotta read the comments/editorials tongue and cheek. How much better is a 6.5 creedmore that a 6.5 Sweed or a .260 Rem? And why is that? 20 other conversations on 100's of other cartridges. Am I glad that this is what's going on? I am. It sometimes takes a long time and many attempts to break a barrier. These are all small steps, IMO, that one day breaks a real barrier at some point. CENTURIES of flintlocks. Decades of #11 caps, years of musket caps, then 209's and in-lines in 100 gr guns, then 150 gr guns! Wow we were there!!! Then Savage got the smokeless going. Wow huge leap! OMG this was something!. 10 years figuring that out....lot's of bugs. THEN....many innovators took it a step further. Reduce the caliber, take away the sabot and make the Savage look like a VW beetle bug. All the small steps, even though not immediately noteworthy, are what humans have done and will do until the next barrier is reached. Bring it!
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Even now, there are people playing with 257 prc wildcats. I know that we're on the ragged edge of "overbore" for 25 caliber, but isn't that what the .257 Weatherby was for?
Just really wish they'd spend time and resources to give us what we need. NOT what they want to sell us on. ESPECIALLY when components are at a premium...
