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Post by shane on Jan 3, 2016 14:34:48 GMT -5
Talking Muzzleloaders and high velocity;
With ever Increasing velocities, the game has changed in the realm of SML.
Many of our choices in projectiles, were designed for pistol
Velocities. Thankfully, there are some very intelligent guys here that are Very innovative and rethinking projectile designs.
It seems very difficult to get a bullet malleable enough
To obturate, grab the lands/grooves, get sub moa results, but yet maintain Weight retention upon impact.
Has any one been able to recover bullets from
Harvested game and measured weight retention?
Thought is might be really cool to see from different projectiles.
Post em up if u have them and perhaps
Your ML velocity, range at impact, and damage on
Game.
Thanks
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Post by Hank on Jan 3, 2016 16:57:21 GMT -5
The Pittman bullets we recovered this season were in pieces, hoping to find a beautiful mushroom was not that easy.. The velocities we were shooting is topping the charts and asking any bullet to stay together at those speeds is asking a lot. Solid copper bullets will stay together but most of your potential energy hits the ground and the deer runs.
So if you want a bullet that is easy to load, obturates easy and gives outstanding accuracy you will have a bullet this is soft and will fracture on deer at closer range and at high speeds.
The most important thing to me is accuracy, then bullet performance. If the bullet passes through and don't open up then that means I will be looking for the deer hopping to find it, if the bullet blows up just under the skin then that means I will be looking for the deer and hoping to find it. If the bullet opens up and fragments deep into the animal and dumps all its energy into it then most of the time it is a DRT.. No tracking required.
There is no perfect bullet, load or rifle for every shot situation, you just have to pick a happy medium of what you think your shot distance will be... I have shot deer out to 300 yards with the BE and as close as 40 yards. All dead deer, I have now shot deer out to 433 yards and as close as 250 with the 452 AccuMax all dead deer. Kyle shot one at 160 iirc and it was DRT.. Some passed through some didn't.. I know of one deer that was shot with the AccuMax at 40 yards broadside,,,,,, lost both front shoulders, but that is to be expected when we shoot deer with small cannons..
The end result is what's most important to me and that is finding my deer..
There are several good bullet choices out there with more hitting the market all the time.. Improvements will continue and innovation will keep moving forward.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 20:32:31 GMT -5
This buck was shot with a 290 TEZ going 2700fps at 280yds. The damage you see is the exit....Shot through both shoulders.Bone and scapula damage was massive causing the exit hole. I've only recovered one of these all copper Barnes. It was a 195 BX that entered head on between front shoulders and was found under the skin in the opposite hind quarter. If you want a bullet that does massive damage and holds together the Barnes are a good hunting bullet. Zen  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 20:37:14 GMT -5
Here's a pic of the 195BX that was recovered..2700fps @ 175yd...perfect mushroom...traveled full length of deer.  |
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Post by eml9 on Jan 3, 2016 21:26:40 GMT -5
Can't beat those barnes!awesome bullet
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Post by shane on Jan 3, 2016 21:45:44 GMT -5
Great Mule Deer!!!
Thats pretty darn good performance!
What kind of accuracy do u get?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 22:30:41 GMT -5
Great Mule Deer!!! Thats pretty darn good performance! What kind of accuracy do u get? The sweet spot on my RemBrux is 7/60 Clays/4198 veggie wad.....On a good day it shoots sub moa out to 400yds.... Smooth sizing with a snug fit. Just snug enough to hold the bullet on the powder....Good luck Zen |
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Post by keith on Jan 4, 2016 16:17:00 GMT -5
Bestill shot 6 deer this year with my bullets from ranges right at 100yds to 346yds and only recovered a portion of 1 bullet (if I am correct) and that was the jacket on a buck that dressed 231# and was shot around 235yds through both shoulders; jacket was stuck under the skin, in the exit hole, on the off side shoulder. Carlos never recovered a bullet either and his shot was around 200yds. I'm pretty much with Jeff on this one. As big as these guns are I want accuracy and precision first and then terminal performance. The entrance hole starts out at the same diameter a lot of small bores expand to so as long as it reaches where it is supposed to hit it will wreck them.
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beans
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Post by beans on Jan 4, 2016 20:21:02 GMT -5
A very complex issue on bullet performance. I can't find major fault in anyones' replies and choices are surely personal.
I was on the high velocity bandwagon for many years with my stock Savage, 80 gr H4198 and 250 TMZ's at around 2,800 fps. This was a 1 1/2 MOA loading that I felt good with to about 250 yds. Being a shoulder shooter and not a chance at taking head shots, this was more than adequate for my hunting needs. MPBR with +/- 3" was around 250 yds.
Still, I killed 90% of my deer at 75 yds or less. Even with a Mono, I blew the hell out of a lot of good meat deer. Deer I would give to others were met with some eyebrows raised as to why I thought I needed to jellify the entire front end on a big doe and waste the front end. These were with rib shots up tight to the shoulder where I like to hit them for the most room for error.
My goal was to always be ready for that once in a lifetime, last minute shot, at the big one in a filed at 250 yds. But this has never happened and I surely realize that how and where I hunt differs from where you might hunt and what type of rest you may have. The power I wielded was more the result of consequence in having a flat shooting rifle.
This was all during the times when we were shotgun/ML only. In 2011 we went centerfire and the Savage got put away except for one weekend a year when we usually are after does only. I then went the entire different route. I went well up in bullet weight and way down in powder to arrive back in the stone age of 1400 fps big bricks that poke big holes. This year a 370 LBT and 30 gr 4759. Great in any temp and a real killer. Drove one of these on a spike horn at 70 yds at the juncture of the neck and shoulder quartering on. crossed the lungs and exited behind the off shoulder. I was very surprised that I didn't lose much meat on this deer but I didn't. 30-40 yds scuffle death run in sight.
On to Centerfire thoughts: I go both ways in terms of speed. I have a tack driving 7mm Mag that loves the Barnes 120 TTSX at around 3450 fps and can't seem to shoot greater than 3/4" groups at 100 yds and less than 2" at 200 yds. A lazor out to 250...literally. The only deer taken was a doe in 2014 at 160 yds. 10 hole broadside shot. Not a bang flop but only went about 10-20 yds with jellified lungs and no wasted meat. This gun only goes to certain stands where I can capitalize on the accuracy and the lazor-ness.
The big winner has been the 30-30 and 170 gr bullets at 2100 fps. 4 deer the past 2 years. 30 - 100 yds on all shots with 4 short death runs. Even this load will do some unwanted damage if you hit shoulder bones.
So...these are my opinions based on the biggest goal of eating most of my deer. Yes, it is nice to slam them to the ground...or maybe you have to if hunting on pressured lands. But, I want to eat most of the deer and if I have to waste a significant portion in order to say "I got 'em", I am not sure I am doing myself justice. Many of the deer I give away go to people who do not or cannot hunt and they go to a processor. They pay a flat fee to get the deer cut up and if the shoulders are mush, they come away with a box of meat that might be more per pount than if they just went and bought beef on sale...with no frags in it.
These are just my thoughts and only shared for the sake of discussion.
Last year, I encountered a few pieces of lead in my ground burger meat and it is not fun and I am not sure if it's healthy or not if ingested.
If I could hunt with one gun/round in all seasons it would be a .243 with a 85 gr TTSX or a 80 gr GMX. Killed a big buck in 2012 and 2 does also with factory loaded GMX's. All under 100 yds and performance was incredible. This little round kills extremely well, very efficiently and little collateral damage. But my Rem 700 varmint bull barreled monster is not fun to lug around.
I am rambling.
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Post by oneshotike on Jan 5, 2016 15:54:09 GMT -5
I saw first hand the performance of the Pittman Accumax and i think it did a very good job....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 18:41:04 GMT -5
We're fortunate to have so many good bullets to choose from...My experience has been that every bullet that I've shot a deer with they have died very quickly....killed them with .458 300gn Barnes Originals, .457 Remington 300gn HP, .400 195gn BX, .400 200gn SST, .452 250gn Hornady SST/FTX, .451 275gn Parker BE, .451 275gn Parker MH,.451 250gn & 290 Barnes TEZ and they pretty much died in their tracks....I would think the new Bombs and AccuMax's would be just as deadly.I've enjoyed over the years working up different combos and then putting them to the hair test...If you put any of our bullets in a vital zone they die....We're shooting elephant guns for deer hunting... Everybody have fun checking them all out.
Zen
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Post by jims on Jan 9, 2016 20:43:10 GMT -5
We have the most selection of bullets ever right now, many choices.
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Post by schunter on Jan 9, 2016 21:42:21 GMT -5
We're fortunate to have so many good bullets to choose from...My experience has been that every bullet that I've shot a deer with they have died very quickly....killed them with .458 300gn Barnes Originals, .457 Remington 300gn HP, .400 195gn BX, .400 200gn SST, .452 250gn Hornady SST/FTX, .451 275gn Parker BE, .451 275gn Parker MH,.451 250gn & 290 Barnes TEZ and they pretty much died in their tracks....I would think the new Bombs and AccuMax's would be just as deadly.I've enjoyed over the years working up different combos and then putting them to the hair test...If you put any of our bullets in a vital zone they die....We're shooting elephant guns for deer hunting... Everybody have fun checking them all out. Zen You are absolutely correct! |
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Post by hillbill on Jan 9, 2016 22:31:22 GMT -5
I have taken deer with the 250 sst from the savage 50. shoulder shot mangled bullet under far side skin on one, 137 grns left, others ribs pass thru
same gun with 250 bonded shockwave; no recovery, good performance, killed 2 or 3
same gun with 250 TMZ; no recovery, excellent performance, killed several
" " 300 barnes original, recovered one that traveled entire length of deer, mostly intact (killed several with them) some pencil holes
Savage pacnor .45 with 200 SSTs, killed several, no recoveries, longest @ 356
" " " with 195 BX, excellent performance, one recovery, picture perfect
.45 barrels with 300 MH, no recoveries, several kills, massive exits
" " " " 275 MH, same
" " 275 ACCUMAX massive trama, Dead in tracks
in 20 yrs I have taken 40-50 deer or more and a few yotes with these cannons, as far as a neat hole with good expansion and not a lot of meat loss the 195 BX wins, mainly because of weight and caliber size, anything .451-.458 is major destruction at high speed, regardless of bullet composition EXCEPT for the Barnes original and sometimes it didn't expand at all, I abandoned it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 23:41:09 GMT -5
These guns Kill...
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Post by jims on Jan 10, 2016 16:33:19 GMT -5
 Hillbill: Good report on many bullets over the years. The no recovery I am sure is the bullets and not the deer. We are fortunate now to have a variety of bullets to use especially since these bullets are not used in the quantities of .223s etc.
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Hillbill: Good report on many bullets over the years. The no recovery I am sure is the bullets and not the deer.