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Post by olegburn on Dec 27, 2021 13:00:55 GMT -5
Could it be the actual slamming of the action to close it? How hard you have to slam it shut? I gave it a thought what you thinking, and it is worth considering. Air guns are hard on regular scopes because recoil is very different. Those who slam it hard maybe should switch to decaff?
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Post by 71yella on Dec 27, 2021 13:46:34 GMT -5
All im saying is the downward sudden stop of closing one is a way for the tube to firnly stop but ends want to keep goin down. The bigger heavier lens would exaggerate this effect combined with recoil, the scope is getting flexed and tortured both ways. I only have a few break action guns but one is a switch barrel in .444 marlin and 454 casull. I try to close them just hard enough to lock.
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Post by SURESHOT on Dec 27, 2021 17:40:03 GMT -5
Could it be the actual slamming of the action to close it? How hard you have to slam it shut? I gave it a thought what you thinking, and it is worth considering. Air guns are hard on regular scopes because recoil is very different. Those who slam it hard maybe should switch to decaff? Have zeroed a couple CVA SCOUTS 45/70 converted and for those to cock the trigger we had to close them very hard, now I did adjust the screw for holding the for arm stock and close was not near as hard to cock. Although no issues with the scope,,,,,,
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Post by dennis on Dec 27, 2021 19:41:27 GMT -5
I have never had to slam shut either my Apex or Scout for them to lock up. If they wouldn't lock up the DI module wasn't screwed all the way in. I think if someone is having to slam them shut that something is causing a headspace issue. JMO
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Post by ballistic on Dec 27, 2021 22:04:30 GMT -5
Vibration. Scope base is mounted to the barrel instead of on a receiver. The scope base is attached to the barrel harmonics. One of many slow motion videos showing harmonics. Would be cool if one of us could show this on one of our break actions. I believed it first 20 times when I heard the "vibration" argument until I started thinking this way: -What is the main force that causes the stress to that scope? Barrel whip theory always seemed suspicious to me- bullet is long gone before all the visual "awful" vibration starts that is caught by 24 frame per second recording. The answer in my opinion is 99.9% the recoil. The force that jerks it in one direction very fast and violent. Scope body follows the scope rings and all the internal parts go for a ride. The lighter the gun the faster is the acceleration (load power considering of course) Break action guns are almost always very light and that is my theory - Scopes got eaten due to laws of physics. Maybe I oversimplify it, but that is my theory based on my experience. I will re-read my reply after I get me some coffee. I agree that recoil is likely the culprit. Nathan Wright at muzzlebrakes and more does lots of testing to improve the brakes effectiveness on recoil. I’m running a 5 port super beast brake on my heavy .40 cal and shooting pitman 325,s at 3100 fps so it gets your attention. I asked Nathan if he could build a bigger brake and he explained that there’s only so much a brake can do. He suggested I lower my speed, or lower the bullet weight, or increase the weight of the setup. I was actually shooting those 325,s close to 3200 fps but it was too hard on me to shoot loose like I want. I went to 275,s at 3250 and it was much easier on me. My point is the heavier the bullet and higher speeds will generate more recoil especially on a lightweight setup. I’ve found the harder the recoil- everything will loosen up faster. Scopes will slip in the rings, rings and bases will loosen or break, action screws will loosen and most cheaper end scopes will break. My setup weighs 17 lbs so it’s pretty heavy and the loads above are my limit. A friends .45 at 12.5 lbs shooting 325,s (same brake)at 3000 is way too much for me and I expect it will be harder on everything including the scope than my heavier setup. My lightweight encore shoots 200 grain sst w a sabot at 2200 fps for a reason. It doesn’t have a brake and it’s been hard on scopes. Great input from everyone -Thanks
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Post by dennis on Jan 5, 2022 8:25:56 GMT -5
In response to the OP/buckeye68, My only experiences with break actions is 1- a CVA Apex (which I no longer have), original scope base that came with it probably pot metal was bedded to the barrel (JB weld} and a cheap/free to me Konus Pro 3-9x50IR. The scope lasted about 600 shots and would not focus, they replaced it. 2-My current CVA Scout blued/black with Hanks pic rail, way better rail than junk original, Have had the Konus Pro 3-9x50IR on it and a Konus PRO 275 ML scope on it now, this scope also was free to me, these are cheap scopes and so far have done well.
That being said, I am not shooting (hot) loads from the break actions. I have never shot 65gr of 4198 with a 275gr bullet. I killed 18 or maybe more deer with the Apex and 6 so far this season with the Scout. I don't think it is necessary or needed to run that hot a load to kill a deer. I am currently using 54gr 4227 with a ww and 240xtp mag @ 2600+fps and @ 50yds it leaves a 3.5-4" exit wound. I think keeping the scope rings as close to being over the rail mounting screws would help to keep a scope alive. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by dennis on Jan 5, 2022 8:29:08 GMT -5
In response to the OP/buckeye68, My only experiences with break actions is 1- a CVA Apex (which I no longer have), original scope base that came with it probably pot metal was bedded to the barrel (JB weld} and a cheap/free to me Konus Pro 3-9x50IR. The scope lasted about 600 shots and would not focus, they replaced it. 2-My current CVA Scout blued/black with Hanks pic rail, way better rail than junk original, Have had the Konus Pro 3-9x50IR on it and a Konus PRO 275 ML scope on it now, this scope also was free to me, these are cheap scopes and so far have done well. That being said, I am not shooting (hot) loads from the break actions. I have never shot 65gr of 4198 with a 275gr bullet in my brake actions. I killed 18 or maybe more deer with the Apex and 6 so far this season with the Scout. I don't think it is necessary or needed to run that hot a load to kill a deer. I am currently using 54gr 4227 with a ww and 240xtp mag @ 2600+fps and @ 50yds it leaves a 3.5-4" exit wound. I think keeping the scope rings as close to being over the rail mounting screws would help to keep a scope alive. Just my 2 cents. I am shooting DI.
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 6, 2022 7:59:07 GMT -5
Hot loads and the scope mounted on high rings makes sense, Dennis.
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Post by dennis on Jan 6, 2022 8:20:32 GMT -5
Would be nice if all break action bases were picatinny and tigged not screwed to the barrel. It would take that bad design out of the equation. Not a big deal for mfg as they have to jig up the lug, just another set-up or different set-up.
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Post by damnyankee on Jan 6, 2022 10:25:58 GMT -5
I JB welded my rail on my Encore and everything seems good so far. I wonder if my big blocky rings are a help or a hazard? I just read a bunch of posts about broken scopes on the board bought the most heavy duty fixtures I could afford
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Post by bronko22000 on Jan 10, 2024 19:37:46 GMT -5
I have both the CVA Scout in .45-70 and Hanks converted SML. Rifles are identical in every other way. I shoot 51 gr of IMR4198 in the .45-70 and 55 gr of IMR4198 in the SML and shooting 250 gr Hornady FTX bullets out of both. IMO the reason you can shoot heavier loads out of the SML is because the cartridge round uses .458" bullets while the SML uses .451" bullets. Smaller diameter = less pressure. As far as barrel harmonics go I worked with my Bergara 6.5 CM for 6 months developing a consistently accurate load for it. Using the same "ladder" testing moving up in 0.3 gr increments and verifying accuracy and velocity there are very identifiable nodes. I have that rifle consistently shooting 1/4 MOA at 200 yards. And that wasn't going thru the extremes of weighing cases and bullets. Just using one lot of every component.
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Post by thelefthand on Jan 11, 2024 11:39:21 GMT -5
What are the most common failure modes for the scopes? No longer tracking correctly, POI shifts, not holding zero, cracked/broken lenses? I'm just curious HOW the scopes are normally failing. That MIGHT shine some light on WHY they are failing. I know that the Savage ML has always had a reputation for eating scopes, especially Leopolds. I've been running an old Bausch and Lomb Elite 3000 3-9x40 on mine. I started off pushing 250gr bonded SSTs around 2600 fps for the first 5 or so years, and then switched to shooting 300gr SSTs at 2450 fps for the past 16 years. No issues so far. I know a few others that have similar results with the Zeiss Conquest scopes, but those were always out of my budget.
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Post by jeepeater on Jan 11, 2024 13:44:36 GMT -5
There’s some really interesting scope test data over at the Rokslide forums. If you google “Rokslide scope tests” it should come up. It’s surprising how even some of the popular and more expensive scopes don’t hold up to even slight bumps and drops, or hold zero just riding in the back seat a few hundred miles. It’s worth looking at, and should open some eyes as to which scopes hold up, and which ones are prone to fail.
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