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Post by buckeye68 on Dec 22, 2021 21:48:03 GMT -5
I been seeing a lot of talk on the forum about scope issues on break actions. I thought it would be a good idea to start a new thread about the issues.
From what I've been reading, everyone seems to think that the reasons are:
Recoil?
Quality of the scope people are using?
Lead sled that’s loaded down with weight?
Slamming the action closed?
Barrel harmonics?
Magnum loads?
CVA higher sales volume VS Encore lower sales volume because of price point?
SML conversation on a stock 45/70 barrel?
Low tech VS high tech scope design?
1 piece mount VS 2 scope ring mounts?
Screwed VS glued and screwed to the barrel?
4 screw VS 6 screw scope rings?
Please post your thoughts and why break actions are hard on scopes.
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Post by 71yella on Dec 22, 2021 22:16:32 GMT -5
Could it be the actual slamming of the action to close it?
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Post by 150class on Dec 22, 2021 22:33:54 GMT -5
Vibration. Scope base is mounted to the barrel instead of on a receiver. The scope base is attached to the barrel harmonics.
One of many slow motion videos showing harmonics. Would be cool if one of us could show this on one of our break actions.
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Post by flattopusa on Dec 22, 2021 23:02:01 GMT -5
Vibration. Scope base is mounted to the barrel instead of on a receiver. The scope base is attached to the barrel harmonics. One of many slow motion videos showing harmonics. Would be cool if one of us could show this on one of our break actions. The why does this not happen on other single shot break barrels of basically the same design, H&R, T/C, etc. |
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Post by smokepolehall on Dec 23, 2021 9:26:19 GMT -5
This is just a thought n my opinion on the scopes. I have had my converted NEF for 6 years & have never had an issue with any scope i have used. I think the use of lower end powder loads maybe the reason i don't have scope issues. I don't shoot real heavy weight bullets & i cannot stand the recoil. The hottest load i can hold up to for 5 shots is 58 grs of H4198. I shot 60 grs one time n it hurt my busted up shoulder for over a week. Your mileage may vary
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Post by dennis on Dec 23, 2021 10:40:40 GMT -5
I perhaps (might) buy into harmonics for example why are 22cal rifles hard on scopes? A friend of mine put a vx3 on a 22 and 1 shot and the reticle was messed up. He sent the scope in for repair but also ordered a 22 specific scope. Different vibe frequency? dunno I don't see buckeye68 having any troubles with NF weather it be 22 or his dinosaur killing We The People sml. I want a NF scope and am saving toward that end even if it is used.
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Post by dannoboone on Dec 23, 2021 11:32:47 GMT -5
Dennis, was that .22 semi-auto? The springer pellet gun scopes I have
are also recommended for .22 semi-autos, supposedly for the reason
that the bolt slamming forward acts similar to the forward shock of a
springer.
"Then why does this not happen on other single shot break barrels of basically the same design, H&R, T/C, etc."
Could be because of caliber and that they are not loaded for T-Rex.
There is an old Japanese made Tasco on my Encore Tactical 20 that
has been there for over 15 years...but then, there is almost zero
recoil.
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Post by flattopusa on Dec 23, 2021 12:37:16 GMT -5
I find it hard to buy the barrel harmonics reason. ALL rifles have barrel harmonics to one degree or another, and the caliber, the energy it produces, the thickness and length of the barrel, the weight, all play a part in that.
The only difference between a CVA Hunter/Scout cartridge gun and the SML conversion is that the cartridge gun uses a cartridge and the SML has a plug that replaces the cartridge. I have two CVA Hunters, a cartridge gun and an SML, and they are both identical in every way...weight, scope. scope mount, caliber, and load, and both shoot a 315 grain bullet at 2290 fps give or take. If the SML would break a scope, it would seem to me (but I dont know all the ins and outs of this) that the cartridge gun would do the same. I have not heard of any issues with CVA Hunters/Scouts (cartridge guns) having scope breakage issues to a great degree...no more than any other platform.
That leads me to the loads folks shoot in their CVA's SML's, or the SML modification itself.
Like Smokepolehall said maybe the load has something to do with it. My SML load develops 3600 ft lbs at 59 grains of Reloader-7...from a cartridge gun perspective thats a lot of get up and go! I have read that some folks are are near 3000 fps with 275/300 grain bullets. Thats 5000 to 6000 ft lbs! 5000/6000 ft lbs in a 8 to 9 lb rifle will break a scope or two..... If the scope is not mounted SOLID that could be an issue too.
Then there is the SML modification itself. I see no problem there. The plug is high grade material and when properly secured (tight) should have should have no more impact on the scope than a cartridge rifle does. If it was impacting the scope mounts or scope there should be barrel swelling in the chamber area of the rifle....that is the only thing that could impact the scope mounted where it is. By the way all CVA Scouts and Hunters are working rated at 62,000 psi, and are proof tested to the CIP standard of 77,000 PSI...they are a strong gun.
This leads me to what buckeye66 said about lead sleds. The recoil of a rifle needs somewhere to go and the shoulder absorbs that recoil. If you offer resistance to that recoil it will increase the stress on the scope, mounts. and the rifle itself. If the rifles recoil has no where to go it would create a reverse recoil...rifle scope are designed predominantly to take recoil in one direction. There are scopes that I use on break barrel piston air guns (which DESTROY good rifle scopes) that are designed to take recoil in both directions and they work quite well. Anyway, I wonder how many of these scope issues might have been caused by lead sleds. I personally dont use them and never have....so maybe somebody can offer some insight on that.
One last point: The more complicated (highly technical) a scope is, the more likely something will go wrong with it. I have had one straight power scope go south in near 60 years of competitive shooting and hunting. I have had a good number of variable power scopes go south during that same time. Today's scopes are very high tech, they have huge ocular and objective lenses and all sorts of bells and whistles and they are something to behold... but, they are also more intricate in design and with that comes susceptibility to breakage.
I am open to any and all reasons why this would be an issue, and maybe we can get to the bottom of it.
Good scopes can break on any rifle, but I just cant see how one brand of rifle, converted to SML, could be any harder than another brand of the same design. If CVA's are breaking scopes on a regular basis, it would seem to me that all other break barrel SML conversions would be doing the same.
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Post by booner22 on Dec 23, 2021 13:43:31 GMT -5
I would guess the reason why we hear more about the cva’s is more people have them. Total guess though. I am curious how many on this group have encore builds or something else. Also the loads in a ml seem to be way above normal cartridge loads as a general rule.
I have a 1 piece dnz mount that was bedded and lapped on mine that failed (or didn’t fail according to customer service). Can’t believe the mounting had anything to do with mine. I guess wider 3 screw rings would provide some support.
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Post by flattopusa on Dec 23, 2021 14:06:37 GMT -5
I would guess the reason why we hear more about the cva’s is more people have them. Total guess though. I am curious how many on this group have encore builds or something else. Also the loads in a ml seem to be way above normal cartridge loads as a general rule. I have a 1 piece dnz mount that was bedded and lapped on mine that failed (or didn’t fail according to customer service). Can’t believe the mounting had anything to do with mine. I guess wider 3 screw rings would provide some support. Did you lap the rings? |
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Post by smokepolehall on Dec 23, 2021 15:15:16 GMT -5
I just have cheaper single screw loopy rifleman rings on mine
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Post by flattopusa on Dec 23, 2021 15:29:15 GMT -5
I just have cheaper single screw loopy rifleman rings on mine
Judging from your load...which is close to what I shoot.....and the loopy rifleman rings...I think the upper end loads may be an issue. I have DNZ Game Reapers on both my CVA's and no issues so far. I mark my scope and rings with witness marks...if they move I will know it.
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Post by booner22 on Dec 23, 2021 16:25:29 GMT -5
I would guess the reason why we hear more about the cva’s is more people have them. Total guess though. I am curious how many on this group have encore builds or something else. Also the loads in a ml seem to be way above normal cartridge loads as a general rule. I have a 1 piece dnz mount that was bedded and lapped on mine that failed (or didn’t fail according to customer service). Can’t believe the mounting had anything to do with mine. I guess wider 3 screw rings would provide some support. Did you lap the rings? Just a little it is a 1 piece integrated rail and rings and alignment looked good. |
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Post by flattopusa on Dec 23, 2021 16:27:38 GMT -5
Just a little it is a 1 piece integrated rail and rings and alignment looked good.
I have the same on my two CVA Hunters....no lapping....so far so good>
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Dec 23, 2021 19:33:44 GMT -5
I use Burris Xtreme Tactical rings with the Delrin in insert’s on my Encore/Brux. The Barrel is 28”with a radial brake. Also my pic rail is tig welded on . I shoot 225 gn bullets with 62 gn of H4198. Scope is a Sightron SIII. Recoil is tiny. Personally I thing big bullets and big powder charges are the major reason for scope failure. JMHO
Drop
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Post by hillbill on Dec 23, 2021 20:35:16 GMT -5
I find it hard to buy the barrel harmonics reason. ALL rifles have barrel harmonics to one degree or another, and the caliber, the energy it produces, the thickness and length of the barrel, the weight, all play a part in that. The only difference between a CVA Hunter/Scout cartridge gun and the SML conversion is that the cartridge gun uses a cartridge and the SML has a plug that replaces the cartridge. I have two CVA Hunters, a cartridge gun and an SML, and they are both identical in every way...weight, scope. scope mount, caliber, and load, and both shoot a 315 grain bullet at 2290 fps give or take. If the SML would break a scope, it would seem to me (but I dont know all the ins and outs of this) that the cartridge gun would do the same. I have not heard of any issues with CVA Hunters/Scouts (cartridge guns) having scope breakage issues to a great degree...no more than any other platform. That leads me to the loads folks shoot in their CVA's SML's, or the SML modification itself. Like Smokepolehall said maybe the load has something to do with it. My SML load develops 3600 ft lbs at 59 grains of Reloader-7...from a cartridge gun perspective thats a lot of get up and go! I have read that some folks are are near 3000 fps with 275/300 grain bullets. Thats 5000 to 6000 ft lbs! 5000/6000 ft lbs in a 8 to 9 lb rifle will break a scope or two..... If the scope is not mounted SOLID that could be an issue too. Then there is the SML modification itself. I see no problem there. The plug is high grade material and when properly secured (tight) should have should have no more impact on the scope than a cartridge rifle does. If it was impacting the scope mounts or scope there should be barrel swelling in the chamber area of the rifle....that is the only thing that could impact the scope mounted where it is. By the way all CVA Scouts and Hunters are working rated at 62,000 psi, and are proof tested to the CIP standard of 77,000 PSI...they are a strong gun. This leads me to what buckeye66 said about lead sleds. The recoil of a rifle needs somewhere to go and the shoulder absorbs that recoil. If you offer resistance to that recoil it will increase the stress on the scope, mounts. and the rifle itself. If the rifles recoil has no where to go it would create a reverse recoil...rifle scope are designed predominantly to take recoil in one direction. There are scopes that I use on break barrel piston air guns (which DESTROY good rifle scopes) that are designed to take recoil in both directions and they work quite well. Anyway, I wonder how many of these scope issues might have been caused by lead sleds. I personally dont use them and never have....so maybe somebody can offer some insight on that. One last point: The more complicated (highly technical) a scope is, the more likely something will go wrong with it. I have had one straight power scope go south in near 60 years of competitive shooting and hunting. I have had a good number of variable power scopes go south during that same time. Today's scopes are very high tech, they have huge ocular and objective lenses and all sorts of bells and whistles and they are something to behold... but, they are also more intricate in design and with that comes susceptibility to breakage. I am open to any and all reasons why this would be an issue, and maybe we can get to the bottom of it. Good scopes can break on any rifle, but I just cant see how one brand of rifle, converted to SML, could be any harder than another brand of the same design. If CVA's are breaking scopes on a regular basis, it would seem to me that all other break barrel SML conversions would be doing the same. OK, JMO
So one brand of gun is no more prone to killing scopes than the other. Like has been stated, there are more CVA conversions out there by far than any other. How many other brands do we see other than the CVA and TCs shooting smokeless? maybe a handful of H&Rs but very seldom anything else.
Most break actions tend to get cheaper scopes, cheaper gun, cheaper scope, it's just the nature of the beast, cheaper scopes don't tend to hold up as well as the pricey scopes do.
on a break action gun the scope is sitting on the end of a fulcrum so to speak unlike a center fire action which is bolted down inside the stock and most of the time with bedding under the action which makes most of the barrel whip harmonics forward of the action.
Still, CF actions have killed many more scopes than the break action guns but I would bet the BA guns kill more by percentage.
A lead sled weighted that is not allowed to move is hard on any scope, it don't matter what it's mounted on, ask me how I know? I killed a few scopes early on by using a sled with about 50 lbs laying on it, later I left the weight off and things fared a little better.
my first Apex was shooting 275s at about 2500 or so, it also didn't have a brake, as many of you can attest, the recoil will get your attention. My current .40 cal Apex is shooting a 297 @ 3000 fps and the recoil is mild by comparison, which one would be harder on a scope? I would bet the original without the brake?
Yes Mark's NF on his brake action will likely fare better than most other scopes, they are well built and heavy to boot, not cheap either, likely one of the better choices to park on top of these guns if you can afford it and you don't mind the weight.
Keep in mind most brake action guns get shot very little, want to see what your scope is made of? run several hundred loads through it.
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Post by buckeye68 on Dec 23, 2021 22:58:00 GMT -5
I’ve tried to add to the list of issues on the top of the thread as they came in.
This is a good discussion and some good ideals.
Keep the coming!
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Post by flattopusa on Dec 24, 2021 6:14:00 GMT -5
All of the above?
I am going deer hunting for a while and will be off the grid.....If the scope on my SML doesn't go south I may get one! I am sure by the time I get back you will have this problem solved...I am counting on ya!
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Post by smokepolehall on Dec 24, 2021 10:49:32 GMT -5
Well take your time, for myself my unknown scope issues are just fine using my loads
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Post by olegburn on Dec 27, 2021 12:45:47 GMT -5
Vibration. Scope base is mounted to the barrel instead of on a receiver. The scope base is attached to the barrel harmonics. One of many slow motion videos showing harmonics. Would be cool if one of us could show this on one of our break actions. I believed it first 20 times when I heard the "vibration" argument until I started thinking this way: -What is the main force that causes the stress to that scope? Barrel whip theory always seemed suspicious to me- bullet is long gone before all the visual "awful" vibration starts that is caught by 24 frame per second recording. The answer in my opinion is 99.9% the recoil. The force that jerks it in one direction very fast and violent. Scope body follows the scope rings and all the internal parts go for a ride. The lighter the gun the faster is the acceleration (load power considering of course) Break action guns are almost always very light and that is my theory - Scopes got eaten due to laws of physics. Maybe I oversimplify it, but that is my theory based on my experience. I will re-read my reply after I get me some coffee.  |
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