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Post by shane on Dec 31, 2015 0:45:21 GMT -5
So i have been thinking lately about scopes, Heavy recoiling guns, scope death, and mounting Systems. (My brain hurts when i think too much).
1. The more scopes sold by a manufacturer, the More problems you will hear about failing. (Law of Averages). Hence, we don't hear as much about High priced scopes failing, because the "Average Joe" doesn't buy a NightForce, S&B, Zeiss Diavari, or a March!!!!
2. Lower priced scopes, most definitely have poorer quality control, cheaper parts/labor, & go thru less scrutiny during/after production and before leaving the factory. Or just inferior parts failed.
3. IMPROPER Scope Mounting i believe contributes to many a scope death. This is will be much more evident in HEAVY RECOIL SML's!!!!
-----How many of us Lap our scope rings? A poorly machined ring can cause damage or very slight pressure in the erector tube. -----How many make sure the rings aligned exactly parallel To one another? Poor alignment ring to ring causes some Very minor tube damage and hence may lead to failure. -----How many of us use the Proper inch pounds of torque on our base screws and Ring screws? -----How many use Thread locker on base/ring screws? ****Loose bases or rings cause exponentially more scope vibration within the scope****Again, the bigger the recoil, The more likely there will be damage to the optics!!!
With so many variables that can lead to ultimate scope "Death", i have started to wonder was it user error??
Was it actually "The Pilot" or the Plane?
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Post by Hank on Dec 31, 2015 1:17:06 GMT -5
I have lapped a few rings over the years but don't find it as necessary as much now a days with the high quality rings and bases.. Most everything I mount now is on a quality picatinny rail and quality rings.. Nightforce recommends you do not lap their rings so I don't.
Leupolds dual dove Thailand the standard mounts used for so many years need to be aligned and possibly lapped to make sure they are straight.
I always use a torque driver when mounting a scope, however I like to go a tad over spec.
I very really use thread locker on base or ring screws.. I have had to machine out several broken or stripped screw heads because a thread locker was used.. Some people like it, but I prefer to not use it. Once in awhile it is necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 8:25:29 GMT -5
I lapped the rings on my beak open, and glad I did, they needed it. I think they are Warne. My bolt gun has a Murppy steel base and Nightforce rings which, like Jeff said, lapping is not advised. I did use blue loctite but found it breaks loose as easy as finger nail polish which makes me wonder if that's even worth the effort. I followed the torque specs to the letter, or number in this case
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 8:44:36 GMT -5
I've never owned a $750+ scope and in reality doubt I will ever be able to. But I'm watching with interest.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 9:26:18 GMT -5
I've never owned a $750+ scope and in reality doubt I will ever be able to. But I'm watching with interest. Optics are more important that I ever realized. I spent that much on mine and it was on sale, normally around 900.00 But I love it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 9:35:19 GMT -5
I'm sure it is well worth it. I just meant anything I had to offer wouldn't really fit in the conversation but I posted to show I was interested. Guess I used the wrong words I hope I didn't offend anybody.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 9:38:48 GMT -5
nobody, you are cool. no offense taken by me. Everyone has things to offer and you are no different.
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Post by hillbill on Dec 31, 2015 10:34:39 GMT -5
I have had many scopes fail, most on SMLs, I would say 95%.
they are by nature hard on scopes, lots of recoil.
I have broke several leupold, a few Zeiss, Valdada, Zwaro, Cabelas Euro, Nikon, Bushnell and a few random others. the ones I have sent back the most are the ones I have used the most of. Is anything bullet proof? NA
for mounts on SMLs I always use a cnc machined Pic rail and they are always bedded to the action, cheap and easy insurance I think. I never use two piece mounts, If so they must be lapped. rails I use and would recommend; Ken Farrell Murphy Warne Talley Nightforce Badger TPS Near
for rings
TPS Nightforce Leupold Badger Seekins Vortex Murphy Near
on the low dollar side of bases I would choose Talley or Warne on the upper end Ken Farrel and Near on the low dollar side of rings I would go with Leupold PRW, hard to beat for the price but for heavy scopes they have slipped on me before
I use a lot of TPS rings and they are very good Quality for the dollar On the upper end Nightforce and probably tops IMO is Near MFG
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Post by shane on Dec 31, 2015 11:00:54 GMT -5
I have 3 sets of Burris Extreme Tactical Rings on Burris Picatinny 2 piece steel bases. A set runs about $100 total. Very heavy duty bases and rings. I called Burris before purchasing and the Customer Service rep told me he uses them on his .50 Cal and never an issue. I have been very please with them so far....
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Post by linebaugh on Dec 31, 2015 12:25:51 GMT -5
I have had a Monarch turret/erector shoot craps and I have had a Kahles lose seal allowing what I think was some type of mold on the inside of the glass. In both cases they were fixed with relative promptness and at no charge.
I bed my bases every single time and usually go so far as to mill light biscuit cuts on the mill into the receiver and correspondingly into the base. By doing this when they are epoxy bedded it adds another level of rigidity. I also lap my rings on nearly every single gun these days. I don't care who makes the mount and rings it is cheap insurance for me and in most cases takes a few minutes to complete. I also prefer the one piece mount and in addition much prefer the one piece mount/base combos.
Hillbill got most of the mounts above (many I have not used) but I would throw the DNZ mounts in the mix as a dandy ring/mount system. I have switched to them almost exclusively now.
One last comment. I ran the $3-400 bushnell elites for years back about 10 yrs ago and beat the snot out of them. I never did any dial up with them but I never had one of them fail me. Not the best glass on earth but since I don't compete I can make them work just fine.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 19:33:52 GMT -5
I've always used two piece mounts on my smokeless guns... Talley's and Warnes and always lapped...Nikon's, Bushnell's, Weavers, and Vortex's...I guess I've been lucky...only the Vortex Viper had to be sent back. I'm shooting Warne Quick detach rings on my current RemBrux....I've got a set on my Vortex Viper and another on a Weaver Super Slam...Both set up to shoot different bullets...They hold zero good and make for quick changeover if needed...They were popular among the the smokeless crowd 6-7 years ago but you don't see many using them now.. Zen
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Post by Richard on Dec 31, 2015 23:02:13 GMT -5
Burris short mag, Leupold MK IV and NF 8x32. The short mag has over 2,000 ML shots on it and while not currently in use, is still in perfect working condition. The MK IV has over 3700 ML shots on it and is currently on a new Shilen build and working just fine. My current scope is the NF 8 x 32 and working just fine. For bases, I have gone to the Brownell's version of the Farrel. It is a steel Picatinny rail and looks just like Ken Farrel's. Also about $25 cheaper. For rings, I am a big fan of the Burris Tactical aluminum rings with the "six screws!" They lock onto the rail with a 1/2" hex nut. The wide foot print gives a lot of bite on the scope tube and distributes the pressure more so than standard narrow rings. Mounts get bedded and rings get lapped!
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Post by deadeye on Dec 31, 2015 23:51:34 GMT -5
looks like my xtr's are in last in this poll which is a good thing imo.
heavy recoiling guns per scope- if a scope is light in weight...probably not meant for this purpose.
from the list burris xtr"s & nf nsx are my favorites for toughness & all around great scopes.
there are 3 brands listed I would have no interest in mounting on these "beast'' jmho
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Post by shane on Jan 1, 2016 0:54:43 GMT -5
What scopes would u avoid deadeye? And why? I second your choice of ring Mr. Richard. Fantastic!!! Got 3 sets now. Just picked up some new Grand slam tactical Rings and there is very little diffrence from the Burris tacticals.
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Post by deadeye on Jan 1, 2016 11:04:07 GMT -5
What scopes would u avoid deadeye? And why? I second your choice of ring Mr. Richard. Fantastic!!! Got 3 sets now. Just picked up some new Grand slam tactical Rings and there is very little diffrence from the Burris tacticals. shane- I will not point out the 3,don't want to ruin someones NYD.
I pay attention to people posting on mz boards & there have been a lot of failures. when there is a definite pattern of failures per certain brand/model I mentally note it. also look in natchezss.com in the refurbished section-that tells a story. companies do go through waves of qc & products usually do get better as we live on. scopes as a whole are getting better imo.
want a better & less expensive aluminum than the burris tacticals(make sure you lap the burris rings)ime
www.midwayusa.com/product/177034/weaver-tactical-picatinny-style-rings-matte
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4buck
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Post by 4buck on Jan 1, 2016 11:46:37 GMT -5
How much effect does placement on the tube make? Width of the ring that it sits in?
Those are always my thoughts. I've had decent luck with leupold qrw rings. Like how wide they are, same goes with burris tactical mounts.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 12:03:24 GMT -5
How much effect does placement on the tube make? Width of the ring that it sits in? Those are always my thoughts. I've had decent luck with leupold qrw rings. Like how wide they are, same goes with burris tactical mounts. proper mounting and leveling is very important. I believe there is a fairly indepth thread on this topic here somewhere
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Jan 1, 2016 12:14:05 GMT -5
How much effect does placement on the tube make? Width of the ring that it sits in? Those are always my thoughts. I've had decent luck with leupold qrw rings. Like how wide they are, same goes with burris tactical mounts. I think scope weight is relative in this area. I have used the QRW and had 1 Ziess 5x25HD fail . But I think that was due to a design flaw as it was a new model line and they probably didn't expect the heavy recoil they were going to be subjected to. As the replacement scope with the same rings base and rifle is holding up well so far. Approaching 100 shots through it now. Now back to relative weight. Another gun wears a NightForce 8x32 and it is significantly heavier. It is supported by NightForce rings and base. Per their recommendation...and warranty . Just sayin.... Skinny little rings ain't gonna hold a big ol FAT scope. Drop
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Post by Richard on Jan 1, 2016 22:09:02 GMT -5
Deadeye.................I had not thought about them? They look good. You say better? Can you qualify that? I like cheaper; but probably not by much? Will keep them in mind when I need a set. Thanks!
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Post by deadeye on Jan 1, 2016 23:49:15 GMT -5
Deadeye.................I had not thought about them? They look good. You say better? Can you qualify that? I like cheaper; but probably not by much? Will keep them in mind when I need a set. Thanks! yes much better after many sets,make sure weaver stock # starts with a 9.......this was a few years back per rossmans advice which was dead on.
I have some good burris tacticals but most remove much material while lapping-weavers have yet to remove any material & weavers grip the scope with much more grip. a much better ring.
edit-qualify my burris ring statement
as you can see in this next photo- many say tops don't need to be lapped??? in this case it did need it-the only time I witnessed this.
same rail the weavers replaced this pair of rings with no material removal while lapping.
I check all rings with a very light lap just to make sure jmho
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