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Post by flattopusa on Jun 11, 2021 9:06:01 GMT -5
New on the HMB....George, from St. Louis, Mo.
I have a CVA Hunter 444 Marlin barrel at Hanks that he will convert to SML. Hank will install a break action ignition system and will also supply me with a smooth sizing die, and the brass primer modules for the breech plug. I realize that the .429 bore is
an oddball but it is what I had, so with no load data (that I know of) I will be on my own as far as powder and bullet choices. I first want to work with cast bullets and am having a mold made for the purpose. I am guessing that a bullet diameter of .418 to .422 will allow for proper fit in the CVA .429 bore (depending on the BHN of the alloy) so that will be the starting point. As far as powder and primers... at this time there is none to be found, so I will use Reloder-7 and Remington LR....its all I have in
stock other than H-335, H-322, etc. I realize that the ideal would be 4198, and LRM primers so that is on the wish list for now. Also, if the cast bullets dont work out I know a bullet maker that can make jacketed bullets for the purpose....custom order....so, I have a back up.
The reason I went with the CVA was that I already have one in a modified 444 that I hunt with and wanted an identical SML for our muzzle loader season. I had this one sitting NIB and thought it would be nice to have identical hunting rifles...familiarity.
Also the CVA is light (my current 444 weighs 8 lbs with scope, etc) and handy...no need to drag a bench gun through the woods at my age.
I did a lot of research before I chose Hank to do the SML modification, and the reason I did was the match performance of his rifles, his YT videos, experience and high quality work....I have never found any complaints or bad reviews, and he seems to
be a straight up guy that lets his product speak for itself.
A pic of my cartridge rifle...the SML will be identical.
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Post by Sideshow on Jun 11, 2021 12:34:10 GMT -5
Im far from an expert around here but the caliber just might suprise you . I have a buddy with a 44 barrel on a 700 and his bore is .423 so it behaves more like a 40 than a 45 when it comes to powder . He was suprised about that too . It tends to build pressure rather quickly more like a 40 does . Be Aware of this !!!
Fury makes bullets for him i believe in 250gr and 275gr lead tips .
Theres not alot of 40 data posted for loads either so you best be carefull !!!
I would follow 40 data if i had to choose that will coincide with Your Outer Barrel Dimmentions !!! Thats is -- Encore 40 cal loads .
Like i said im no expert but a quickloads program just might be a really good investment !!!
I only spoke up because this isnt normal for sml and i have heard enough to warn you of the safety issues due to caliber . Good luck.....
Ps --A small hole guage set will tell you exactly what that bore size is . Mine is a Starrett set that i got at a pawn shop cheap . Nice to have .
44s come is various sizes through the years believe it or not . Couldnt tell you whats current either .
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Post by flattopusa on Jun 11, 2021 13:12:04 GMT -5
I am new to smokeless though I have been shooting, reloading, wildcatting, etc, for 60 years and one thing I have learned is to "LISTEN" to what folks with experience tell me! After getting some numbers on my bore I fully agree with what you are saying, and appreciate the time you took to give me that information. Thanks!!!
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Post by olegburn on Jun 11, 2021 14:06:11 GMT -5
Do you plan on installing gas checks on your cast bullets?
Otherwise you might need to be mindful of leading your bbl.
What velocities are you trying to achieve?
I assume you ok with full bore bullets only. Not sure if sabots are made for the diameter
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Post by flattopusa on Jun 11, 2021 14:57:47 GMT -5
Yes the bullets will be GC'd.
I have run GC'd bullets with BHN 18 alloys over 2500 fps with no issues...so leading is the least of my concerns. I will run (or try to run) a 300 grain bullet at a tad under 2300 fps to match the velocity of a 300 grain bullet in my cartridge gun. Just looking for a hard hitting bullet out to 200 yards or so. My hunting is close range and 200 yards would be a once in a lifetime shot.....most are easily within 40 yards or so. but, there is always that chance of a longer shot.
No sabots....I am getting a smooth sizing die from Hank...that is where I will start...play with alloy hardness and see where it leads.
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Post by joelmoney on Jun 11, 2021 15:03:29 GMT -5
Only thing I can think of is to watch your power chamber and not get your bullet loaded deep enough to get into it. I will be interested to see how this works out for you. Could certainly open doors to some shooters.
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Post by joelmoney on Jun 11, 2021 15:41:01 GMT -5
Ok after thinking there is one more thing that I can think of that may be an obstacle. Obturation or bullet swell to engage rifling with a “hard lead bullet” would be my next concern but will only be able to be addressed once you start shooting. Maybe someone else will have an answer.
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Post by flattopusa on Jun 11, 2021 15:45:51 GMT -5
Yes, it will be an interesting process...to say the least. Has anybody on here tried to use cast bullets in a SML...no sabots....fit to the bore?
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Post by flattopusa on Jun 11, 2021 15:54:30 GMT -5
I will start with a cup point bullet and alloy I have had excellent success with...BHN 18....good obturation...little if any leading, and expands to a degree in deer sized game, with one hole in...one hole out performance. In my 444 it knocks them down on the spot of the shot, and I have yet to have one get up and take off...they are DRT. A hard cast bullet with a 21/22 BHN may be needed if the softer alloy will not hold the rifling...guess I am going to find out.
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Post by olegburn on Jun 11, 2021 19:10:38 GMT -5
I'd like to hear if someone shot lead bullets with success in a smokeless.
I'll follow this thread.
I also hunt with 444 Marlin but in a H&R HandiRifle and love it.
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Post by Sideshow on Jun 11, 2021 20:01:02 GMT -5
You said youve had no issues with leading but i will toss this out there anyway . You probably know of it .
BLL lube - Bills Liquid Lube , the recipe will be on the web .
This dries and only requires a drop to work fabulous after I knurled my pp bullets oversize , 40 to 1 , and had no leading what so ever in a smoker with Very Hot loads . It dries like a wax finsh . Probably is of no use but why hold onto it i figured ?? They were loaded 1.5 to 2 thou Over bore size with a wool wad , 1/2 a cotton ball in the hollow base balled up in a Clean Bore . It doesnt move . Gun shoots A bug hole -- .410 White Super 91 , lapped Wilson barrel . Like you , this was Completely out of the box thinking for most all of it .
BLL is said to work to around 2600 in cf rifles . I dunno.....never did it . The knurling May be useful ?? Perhaps even a hollow under the GC ??
Sometimes a dumb thought or question will birth a brilliant answer ......
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Post by flattopusa on Jun 11, 2021 22:14:53 GMT -5
I will keep you all posted..The 444 is definitely "the hammer of Thor"...I modify mine to a 2.750 COL......4000 ft lbs is easy to do. Right now my deer load exceeds the 405 Winchester 300 grain load and that is plenty for deer sized game.
I will keep that lube suggestion in mind. I have been using Verals Soft Blue Lube for years with absolutely no issues.
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Post by Sideshow on Jun 12, 2021 5:06:39 GMT -5
I will keep you all posted..The 444 is definitely "the hammer of Thor"...I modify mine to a 2.750 COL......4000 ft lbs is easy to do. Right now my deer load exceeds the 405 Winchester 300 grain load and that is plenty for deer sized game. I will keep that lube suggestion in mind. I have been using Verals Soft Blue Lube for years with absolutely no issues. Is this load filled to 100% case capacity ?? If so thats probably your SML load fairly close right there !!! LOL , a light bulb Finally came on in Michigan !!! Youve got this....... |
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Post by olegburn on Jun 12, 2021 13:06:58 GMT -5
Yes the bullets will be GC'd. I have run GC'd bullets with BHN 18 alloys over 2500 fps with no issues...so leading is the least of my concerns. I will run (or try to run) a 300 grain bullet at a tad under 2300 fps to match the velocity of a 300 grain bullet in my cartridge gun. Just looking for a hard hitting bullet out to 200 yards or so. My hunting is close range and 200 yards would be a once in a lifetime shot.....most are easily within 40 yards or so. but, there is always that chance of a longer shot. No sabots....I am getting a smooth sizing die from Hank...that is where I will start...play with alloy hardness and see where it leads. 200 yard range is very reasonable to achieve with 2300 fps. Sighted 1.5 inches high at 100 yards you will still be in the paper plate sized vitals. That can be done with almost any type bullet IMO |
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Post by buckeye68 on Jun 12, 2021 13:44:09 GMT -5
I will keep you all posted..The 444 is definitely "the hammer of Thor"...I modify mine to a 2.750 COL......4000 ft lbs is easy to do. Right now my deer load exceeds the 405 Winchester 300 grain load and that is plenty for deer sized game. I will keep that lube suggestion in mind. I have been using Verals Soft Blue Lube for years with absolutely no issues. How do you get 4000 ft lbs out of a 300 grain bullet going just under 2300 FPS? Where did you get your calculations from? |
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Post by flattopusa on Jun 12, 2021 15:09:57 GMT -5
Buckeye68 I probably should have said that differently...the modification can produce over 4000 ft lbs, but my deer load, the one I speak of above is only 3600 ft lbs. The modification will produce 4000+ ft lbs with a 300 grain bullet at 2450/2500 fps.
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Post by Sideshow on Jun 13, 2021 7:14:56 GMT -5
The only other thing i can possibly think of is how long is a 444 case minus the bp depth and volume held will equal the available height for powder. This will determine if the bullet will not go beyond the rifleing in the barrel into the new chamber area . You should measure this with your charge used as cf to see if you will be safe from this dilema of a bullet going down too far into that chamber . This is really important !!! You and Hankins may need to figure all this out before you take delivery FT , best if Before work begins . Good idea to avoid any potential problems now !!! Theres 2 different bp that Can be used . This is a topic being discussed right now in another thread , Blue/black scout , that was a 45-70 .
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Post by flattopusa on Jun 13, 2021 8:07:16 GMT -5
Thanks sideshow! When I get the rifle barrel back I will check that out.....and I will check out the blue/black thread as well....but, one of the reasons I am having Hank do this modification is so I dont have to use black powder!
..............because I am "unknowing": What happens "if" the bullet goes into the new chamber?
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Post by Sideshow on Jun 13, 2021 8:16:35 GMT -5
Thanks sideshow! When I get the rifle barrel back I will check that out.....and I will check out the blue/black thread as well....but, one of the reasons I am having Hank do this modification is so I dont have to use black powder! ..............because I am "unknowing": What happens "if" the bullet goes into the new chamber? Oh no FT , this is smokeless powder im talking about !!! I would let Hankins know about the powder stack NOW !!! Im sure He would Appreciate that info Beforehand !!! Nobody wants to do the same job twice !!! IF a bullet extends into the chamber you could risk a possible detonation and barrel blow up !!! |
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Post by flattopusa on Jun 13, 2021 8:28:03 GMT -5
I understand now sideshow, and read the blue/black thread. Thanks! 1.) I will NOT shoot light fast burning powder loads...they have no purpose for me and I am not recoil sensitive. 2.)The way I understand what you are telling me (correct me if I am wrong) is that the powder column must exceed the new chamber and any existing part of the original chamber, so the bullet sits on top of the powder charge and is fully encompassed within the bore/rifling of the barrel.....in other words, no airspace between the base of the bullet and the top of the powder column with the bullet seated fully within the rifling ahead of the original chamber throat.
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