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Post by yoderjac on Apr 21, 2021 15:59:16 GMT -5
Folks,
I don't have any reloading experience and am just starting my journey to stop smoking. I got an encore barrel package from Jeff. I'm beginning to collect up all the accessories I'll need. I wasn't sure I'd be able to use it this year due to the powder shortage, but I got lucky and after trying multiple times per day, I was finally able to get IMR 4198 directly from Hogdon.
I'm now starting to think about how much shooting I'll need to do at the range to sight in and break in the gun and to play with loads. Jeff gave me a good starting point. That brings me to the question:
Do you guys use a powder measure (by volume) after setting it based on weight? Are they accurate enough? If so, do folks have any recommendations on which ones work well and are consistent? Once I have the gun pounding nails, I don't plan to shoot a lot recreationally. I typically take a shot or two to verify my current muzzleloader before the season and then just hunt. I plan to do the same with a smokeless. So, I don't need anything fancy, just something that is accurate.
Thanks in advance.
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Post by joelmoney on Apr 21, 2021 16:06:31 GMT -5
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 21, 2021 16:37:42 GMT -5
I have a RCBS 505 beam. Also a RCBS Chargemaster pro. Which I use the most for now. I have a Harrel's Culver Supreme on the way. For once I get my most desirable load for each gun. That way I can replicate them more quickly. After Talking with Richard I was convinced this is the way to go...for myself anyway.
Drop
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Post by outdoors81 on Apr 21, 2021 16:41:41 GMT -5
I use capped vials with measurement lines on them. I use my powder horn to get me close. In the case of the picture I fill up to the 4ML line(measuring out 58.5grs of H4198). I then dump that in the weigh pan, place it on the scale, and trickle until I hit my weight. Might not be the most efficient, but I didn't have to buy additional equipment. Some day I will upgrade.   |
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Post by Richard on Apr 21, 2021 21:36:38 GMT -5
Ingenuity is the mother of invention!
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Post by yoderjac on Apr 22, 2021 5:50:18 GMT -5
I have a RCBS 505 beam. Also a RCBS Chargemaster pro. Which I use the most for now. I have a Harrel's Culver Supreme on the way. For once I get my most desirable load for each gun. That way I can replicate them more quickly. After Talking with Richard I was convinced this is the way to go...for myself anyway. Drop I realize charges are specified by weight. I'm wondering if a volume dispenser can be calibrated accurately with a scale to dispense accurate weights each time? It sounds like none of the above posters uses one of these and they all use a scale to weigh each charge. Is that true for everyone? Are the volume dispensers too inconsistent to use? |
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Post by dennis on Apr 22, 2021 6:45:34 GMT -5
I would believe that they are inconsistent do to different powder kernel size = different density. maybe if you were only going to use one dedicated powder and measure/weight it would be ok but the scales are can be pretty inexpensive.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 22, 2021 10:26:34 GMT -5
A very seasoned member of this board uses the culver powder dispenser. He claims accuracy to within 1/10 of a grain with H4198. And I have every reason to believe his word. He also says..and I aggree with that 1/10 of a grain is not noticable in the large charge's we are using for general purpose's at the distance's we are shooting. But trickle's and fine tune's loads for competition. So this is the direction I am using
Drop
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Post by joelmoney on Apr 22, 2021 14:46:06 GMT -5
I used to use the Lee powder scoops and trickle final powder weight to accomplish my final weight when I began reloading. The chart that comes with these dippers is pretty accurate. I would still recommend weighing loads to assure accuracy. The powder can change lot to lot. leeprecision.com/powder-measure-kit.html |
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Post by yoderjac on Apr 29, 2021 14:43:21 GMT -5
A very seasoned member of this board uses the culver powder dispenser. He claims accuracy to within 1/10 of a grain with H4198. And I have every reason to believe his word. He also says..and I aggree with that 1/10 of a grain is not noticable in the large charge's we are using for general purpose's at the distance's we are shooting. But trickle's and fine tune's loads for competition. So this is the direction I am using Drop Thanks! I'll check that out! |
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Post by yoderjac on Apr 29, 2021 16:03:03 GMT -5
A very seasoned member of this board uses the culver powder dispenser. He claims accuracy to within 1/10 of a grain with H4198. And I have every reason to believe his word. He also says..and I aggree with that 1/10 of a grain is not noticable in the large charge's we are using for general purpose's at the distance's we are shooting. But trickle's and fine tune's loads for competition. So this is the direction I am using Drop I took a look at them. They are pretty expensive for my use, but everyone says they are the most consistent. I saw it was a local VA company, so I decided to go ahead and buy one. I'll weigh the charges to make sure I've got the right setting and then I'll weigh charges every now and then to verify. Thanks again for your help! |
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 29, 2021 16:27:11 GMT -5
A very seasoned member of this board uses the culver powder dispenser. He claims accuracy to within 1/10 of a grain with H4198. And I have every reason to believe his word. He also says..and I aggree with that 1/10 of a grain is not noticable in the large charge's we are using for general purpose's at the distance's we are shooting. But trickle's and fine tune's loads for competition. So this is the direction I am using Drop I took a look at them. They are pretty expensive for my use, but everyone says they are the most consistent. I saw it was a local VA company, so I decided to go ahead and buy one. I'll weigh the charges to make sure I've got the right setting and then I'll weigh charges every now and then to verify. Thanks again for your help! |
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 29, 2021 16:27:43 GMT -5
Mine just arrived at the other day can't wait to get some free time to use it
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Post by Richard on Apr 30, 2021 12:17:45 GMT -5
OK, so here is the thing with powder measures..................First of all, you need a decent one that the settings are simple and very repeatable.....Like the Harrell's I have and the one Droptine just got. The reason most people do not like them is because they do not know how to use them! There is a learning curve with using powder measures. You have to initially do your share of practice throwing and weighting the charge. The accuracy of a measure is determined by how repeatable you work the throwing arm. For instance....you might raise the handle up and tap it once..or twice? And then dump the charge? Or maybe don't tap the handle. Some will tap the handle once or twice on the down stroke to make sure all the powder has emptied from the drum? Different types of powders require different ways to dispense. If I am dropping N-133 in my PPC, I will only raise the handle without tapping and bring it right down. Some coarser powders might require you to tap it once or twice to fully fill the drum? It is also important to keep the powder bottle at least 3/4 full. I insert and leave in place, a funnel in the top of my bottle and add extra powder.
Even though my measure is a smaller version of Droptines, I can weight/throw up to 63 grains of H-4198 at one time. If I am loading lets say, 88 gr. of Reloader 10X, I adjust my measure to throw/weight 44 grains and then do two dumps. Even with two dumps, I can get within one or two "tenths" of a grain. I will go ahead and load up say 25 vials and then on the last one, do a powder scale check.
While the powder measure is throw charges by volume, you are also throwing by weight as verified on your scale. But..........you have to spend some time just throwing and weighting charges and throwing and weighting and trying different methods until you get what works best for you.
The short range benchresters use their measures exclusively, as they do their reloading right at the matches with the same set of precision prepared cases. NO, scales are even seen.....they rely on the measure.
The original version of the Harrell's measure was developed by a man/shooter named Homer Culver. He used the original Lyman #55 measure. Removed the guts and built his own drum and adjustment set up to put back in the measure. You would just buy the Culver conversion drum from him and insert it into your existing Lyman 55 measure. Shooters would refer to the amount of powder they were using by the number on their Culver measure....not the actual weight.
If you are going to the range to work up a load, what you would do is get your starting load adjusted to your measure. Then at the range, if you wanted to increase the load??? just "click" up a notch or two and fire. Still looking for more velocity or accuracy, go up another click and shoot. Once you found what your are looking for, you can always go home and weight that "Culver" setting.
The powder bottles easily screw on and off the measure. I probably own around 30 or more bottles that I use for various powders. Taped onto the side of the bottle I write settings for particular weights I might want to shoot. At home, I will always verify the setting by weighting on my scale. The clicks can be adjusted to throw various increases in the amount of powder. By setting the little ball/spring detent in one of five different holes, you can make one click throw just a little more or a lot more (five settings)
In this muzzle loader game we play with the large amounts of powder we use, a tenth or two of a grain is relatively insignificant. I can guarantee that if you were to measure out ten charges of say...70 gr. of 4198 and chronographed those loads with your bullet of choice and then measured out ten more charges of say...70.2 grains and chronographed them, you would not be able to tell the difference in velocity readings?
I only weight my charges when I am competing or doing some serious type testing. For what its worth!
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Post by buckeye68 on Apr 30, 2021 22:58:11 GMT -5
OK, so here is the thing with powder measures..................First of all, you need a decent one that the settings are simple and very repeatable.....Like the Harrell's I have and the one Droptine just got. The reason most people do not like them is because they do not know how to use them! There is a learning curve with using powder measures. You have to initially do your share of practice throwing and weighting the charge. The accuracy of a measure is determined by how repeatable you work the throwing arm. For instance....you might raise the handle up and tap it once..or twice? And then dump the charge? Or maybe don't tap the handle. Some will tap the handle once or twice on the down stroke to make sure all the powder has emptied from the drum? Different types of powders require different ways to dispense. If I am dropping N-133 in my PPC, I will only raise the handle without tapping and bring it right down. Some courser powders might require you to tap it once or twice to fully fill the drum? It is also important to keep the powder bottle at least 3/4 full. I insert and leave in place, a funnel in the top of my bottle and add extra powder. Even though my measure is a smaller version of Droptines, I can weight/throw up to 63 grains of H-4198 at one time. If I am loading lets say, 88 gr. of Reloader 10X, I adjust my measure to throw/weight 44 grains and then do two dumps. Even with two dumps, I can get within one or two "tenths" of a grain. I will go ahead and load up say 25 vials and then on the last one, do a powder scale check. While the powder measure is throw charges by volume, you are also throwing by weight as verified on your scale. But..........you have to spend some time just throwing and weighting charges and throwing and weighting and trying different methods until you get what works best for you. The short range benchresters use their measures exclusively, as they do their reloading right at the matches with the same set of precision prepared cases. NO, scales are even seen.....they rely on the measure. The original version of the Harrell's measure was developed by a man/shooter named Homer Culver. He used the original Lyman #55 measure. Removed the guts and built his own drum and adjustment set up to put back in the measure. You would just buy the Culver conversion drum from him and insert it into your existing Lyman 55 measure. Shooters would refer to the amount of powder they were using by the number on their Culver measure....not the actual weight. If you are going to the range to work up a load, what you would do is get your starting load adjusted to your measure. Then at the range, if you wanted to increase the load??? just "click" up a notch or two and fire. Still looking for more velocity or accuracy, go up another click and shoot. Once you found what your are looking for, you can always go home and weight that "Culver" setting. The powder bottles easily screw on and off the measure. I probably own around 30 or more bottles that I use for various powders. Taped onto the side of the bottle I write settings for particular weights I might want to shoot. At home, I will always verify the setting by weighting on my scale. The clicks can be adjusted to throw various increases in the amount of powder. By setting the little ball/spring detent in one of five different holes, you can make one click throw just a little more or a lot more (five settings) In this muzzle loader game we play with the large amounts of powder we use, a tenth or two of a grain is relatively insignificant. I can guarantee that if you were to measure out ten charges of say...70 gr. of 4198 and chronographed those loads with your bullet of choice and then measured out ten more charges of say...70.2 grains and chronographed them, you would not be able to tell the difference in velocity readings? I only weight my charges when I am competing or doing some serious type testing. For what its worth! Nice write up and a little background information to boot! I personal don’t have one but some day I just may have to have one. |
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Post by joelmoney on May 1, 2021 9:41:08 GMT -5
Nice write up on the charge throwing Richard.
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Post by yoderjac on May 1, 2021 12:39:39 GMT -5
OK, so here is the thing with powder measures..................First of all, you need a decent one that the settings are simple and very repeatable.....Like the Harrell's I have and the one Droptine just got. The reason most people do not like them is because they do not know how to use them! There is a learning curve with using powder measures. You have to initially do your share of practice throwing and weighting the charge. The accuracy of a measure is determined by how repeatable you work the throwing arm. For instance....you might raise the handle up and tap it once..or twice? And then dump the charge? Or maybe don't tap the handle. Some will tap the handle once or twice on the down stroke to make sure all the powder has emptied from the drum? Different types of powders require different ways to dispense. If I am dropping N-133 in my PPC, I will only raise the handle without tapping and bring it right down. Some courser powders might require you to tap it once or twice to fully fill the drum? It is also important to keep the powder bottle at least 3/4 full. I insert and leave in place, a funnel in the top of my bottle and add extra powder. Even though my measure is a smaller version of Droptines, I can weight/throw up to 63 grains of H-4198 at one time. If I am loading lets say, 88 gr. of Reloader 10X, I adjust my measure to throw/weight 44 grains and then do two dumps. Even with two dumps, I can get within one or two "tenths" of a grain. I will go ahead and load up say 25 vials and then on the last one, do a powder scale check. While the powder measure is throw charges by volume, you are also throwing by weight as verified on your scale. But..........you have to spend some time just throwing and weighting charges and throwing and weighting and trying different methods until you get what works best for you. The short range benchresters use their measures exclusively, as they do their reloading right at the matches with the same set of precision prepared cases. NO, scales are even seen.....they rely on the measure. The original version of the Harrell's measure was developed by a man/shooter named Homer Culver. He used the original Lyman #55 measure. Removed the guts and built his own drum and adjustment set up to put back in the measure. You would just buy the Culver conversion drum from him and insert it into your existing Lyman 55 measure. Shooters would refer to the amount of powder they were using by the number on their Culver measure....not the actual weight. If you are going to the range to work up a load, what you would do is get your starting load adjusted to your measure. Then at the range, if you wanted to increase the load??? just "click" up a notch or two and fire. Still looking for more velocity or accuracy, go up another click and shoot. Once you found what your are looking for, you can always go home and weight that "Culver" setting. The powder bottles easily screw on and off the measure. I probably own around 30 or more bottles that I use for various powders. Taped onto the side of the bottle I write settings for particular weights I might want to shoot. At home, I will always verify the setting by weighting on my scale. The clicks can be adjusted to throw various increases in the amount of powder. By setting the little ball/spring detent in one of five different holes, you can make one click throw just a little more or a lot more (five settings) In this muzzle loader game we play with the large amounts of powder we use, a tenth or two of a grain is relatively insignificant. I can guarantee that if you were to measure out ten charges of say...70 gr. of 4198 and chronographed those loads with your bullet of choice and then measured out ten more charges of say...70.2 grains and chronographed them, you would not be able to tell the difference in velocity readings? I only weight my charges when I am competing or doing some serious type testing. For what its worth! Great info! It really confirms my purchase. I'm not a reloader. My only experience with it was in high school. My buddy had a multi-stage for reloading shotgun shells. We would reload a bunch of shells and then shoot clay pigeons or hunt. Back then it was just to save money on shells. I'm also not a competitive shooter. I'm a hunter and hunter ed instructor. The smokeless Encore barrel and stock set I just bought from Jeff is my first exposure to some of the aspects of reloading. I have a digital scale I use for archery (build my own arrows). Since I started with no reloading tools, I don't have a trickler. I just can't imagine filling tube after tube measuring every charge by hand. Since I'm not using the powder measure for reloading or for other muzzleloaders, once I've developed a load for this gun I like, I'll probably leave it set. So, setting repeatability won't matter as much to me, but your description of how to develop a consistency for throwing each load is very useful. That is where I will need consistency. My current plan is to start with Jeff's recommendation and refine as necessary once Kyle gets bullets in stock. After that, I'll clean the bore and take one shot to foul it. I then hunt for the season. After the season, I'll clean the gun. Before each season, I'll take a shot or two to foul the barrel again. I really appreciate all the help folks on this board have provided! |
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Post by blackpowder72 on May 7, 2021 18:18:59 GMT -5
I use the Lee powder dispenser and weigh every charge . If not correct I dump it back in and do it again. I use a Hornady electronic scale. I probably only shoot 100 times a year so I'm in no hurry to weigh my charges. Accuracy is more important than speed of weighing charges to me .
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Post by Sideshow on May 8, 2021 8:04:50 GMT -5
OK, so here is the thing with powder measures..................First of all, you need a decent one that the settings are simple and very repeatable.....Like the Harrell's I have and the one Droptine just got. The reason most people do not like them is because they do not know how to use them! There is a learning curve with using powder measures. You have to initially do your share of practice throwing and weighting the charge. The accuracy of a measure is determined by how repeatable you work the throwing arm. For instance....you might raise the handle up and tap it once..or twice? And then dump the charge? Or maybe don't tap the handle. Some will tap the handle once or twice on the down stroke to make sure all the powder has emptied from the drum? Different types of powders require different ways to dispense. If I am dropping N-133 in my PPC, I will only raise the handle without tapping and bring it right down. Some courser powders might require you to tap it once or twice to fully fill the drum? It is also important to keep the powder bottle at least 3/4 full. I insert and leave in place, a funnel in the top of my bottle and add extra powder. Even though my measure is a smaller version of Droptines, I can weight/throw up to 63 grains of H-4198 at one time. If I am loading lets say, 88 gr. of Reloader 10X, I adjust my measure to throw/weight 44 grains and then do two dumps. Even with two dumps, I can get within one or two "tenths" of a grain. I will go ahead and load up say 25 vials and then on the last one, do a powder scale check. While the powder measure is throw charges by volume, you are also throwing by weight as verified on your scale. But..........you have to spend some time just throwing and weighting charges and throwing and weighting and trying different methods until you get what works best for you. The short range benchresters use their measures exclusively, as they do their reloading right at the matches with the same set of precision prepared cases. NO, scales are even seen.....they rely on the measure. The original version of the Harrell's measure was developed by a man/shooter named Homer Culver. He used the original Lyman #55 measure. Removed the guts and built his own drum and adjustment set up to put back in the measure. You would just buy the Culver conversion drum from him and insert it into your existing Lyman 55 measure. Shooters would refer to the amount of powder they were using by the number on their Culver measure....not the actual weight. If you are going to the range to work up a load, what you would do is get your starting load adjusted to your measure. Then at the range, if you wanted to increase the load??? just "click" up a notch or two and fire. Still looking for more velocity or accuracy, go up another click and shoot. Once you found what your are looking for, you can always go home and weight that "Culver" setting. The powder bottles easily screw on and off the measure. I probably own around 30 or more bottles that I use for various powders. Taped onto the side of the bottle I write settings for particular weights I might want to shoot. At home, I will always verify the setting by weighting on my scale. The clicks can be adjusted to throw various increases in the amount of powder. By setting the little ball/spring detent in one of five different holes, you can make one click throw just a little more or a lot more (five settings) In this muzzle loader game we play with the large amounts of powder we use, a tenth or two of a grain is relatively insignificant. I can guarantee that if you were to measure out ten charges of say...70 gr. of 4198 and chronographed those loads with your bullet of choice and then measured out ten more charges of say...70.2 grains and chronographed them, you would not be able to tell the difference in velocity readings? I only weight my charges when I am competing or doing some serious type testing. For what its worth! Great info! It really confirms my purchase. I'm not a reloader. My only experience with it was in high school. My buddy had a multi-stage for reloading shotgun shells. We would reload a bunch of shells and then shoot clay pigeons or hunt. Back then it was just to save money on shells. I'm also not a competitive shooter. I'm a hunter and hunter ed instructor. The smokeless Encore barrel and stock set I just bought from Jeff is my first exposure to some of the aspects of reloading. I have a digital scale I use for archery (build my own arrows). Since I started with no reloading tools, I don't have a trickler. I just can't imagine filling tube after tube measuring every charge by hand. Since I'm not using the powder measure for reloading or for other muzzleloaders, once I've developed a load for this gun I like, I'll probably leave it set. So, setting repeatability won't matter as much to me, but your description of how to develop a consistency for throwing each load is very useful. That is where I will need consistency. My current plan is to start with Jeff's recommendation and refine as necessary once Kyle gets bullets in stock. After that, I'll clean the bore and take one shot to foul it. I then hunt for the season. After the season, I'll clean the gun. Before each season, I'll take a shot or two to foul the barrel again. I really appreciate all the help folks on this board have provided! Im fairly new to this sml loading too . But i noticed that you only shoot 1 or 2 times to foul your bore . I dont know if thats normal or not ?? My target Rem/Brux 700 seems to need 5 or 6 shots before it settles down and produces 1 hole groups from clean . Im primarily a hunter too and that accuracy is more important to me than paper punching unless im working on a hunting load or working on my technique . I just figured id mention this as i have to shoot so much more than youve said to foul . Its not horrible shotgun accuracy but still off by a inchor so from where it should or could be ?? Just wanted you to be aware of the possibility of it ?? I use the Lee scoops too and then trickle onto a beam . Even my centerfires i do this with . Pita at times but relaxing at others . Maybe i should get a thrower for those pita days !!! Lol !!! Does anybody know if i could foul with a xtp( mags or not) then switch for my pittmans or fury ?? Will they size differently ?? Im almost afraid to ask this as ive spent some bucks on bullets !!! The load is 62gr of H4198 for 300s . Thanks.... |
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Post by Richard on May 8, 2021 10:06:14 GMT -5
When I do my write ups, you will notice I generally shoot a five shot "fouler" group; and usually with XTP's or some other left over bullets (SST's HAP's, Barnes etc)..........Why waste a $2 bullet to foul your bore. Yes, they will size slightly different but the OD (.4501") winds up the same for both the XTP and the Pittman. I have numerous dies so its not a problem to have one set for one bullet and anther "for another?". I do find that XTP's and Pittman's will produce the same MV!; that is why, I use so many XTP's. My pockets are not deep enough to exclusively shoot Pittman's for all the testing/shooting I do. I also throw in some Fury's as they also shoot decent, but at a lower BC. Again, the velocity I get with the Fury bullet mimic's the Pittman and XTP.
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