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Post by hammertime on Mar 26, 2018 18:01:23 GMT -5
Hey Guys,
I found this site via Hank's YouTube channel (which is awesome, I very much appreciate your videos, Jeff). I am not new to muzzleloading in general, but am new to smokeless muzzleloading. I'm 24, but in my teenage days, I shot quite a few deer with 44 cal 240 gr xtp's out of a cheap old CVA using FFg. Anyway, I'm looking to get into the smokeless game, and I'd like to hear from those of you with experience on the subject. I've been pouring through this forum and Doug's, looking for as much info as I can find. I have several Savage centerfire rifles already, both short and long actions. I originally wanted to buy a 10ML-II, but the current prices of those has made me rethink that. My idea is that I can take one of my lesser used savage actions, and have a barrel made to fit it for less than what a used 10ML-II would cost. Plus Savage 10/11/110/111 guns are pretty cheap (last one I gave 200 for LNIB), and I could buy the barrel wrench and justify that purchase in the name of future tinkering. I know Jeff likes Remington 700s, but I like the Savage action, and it makes sense to stick with what I know.
My goals for this rifle are mostly going to be deer hunting. I live and hunt in MO, but may hunt in IL in the future. MO is pretty lax, with a 40 cal minimum, smokeless is okay. IL also allows smokeless, but with a 45 cal minimum. So I think that a 45 cal is the way to go for what I want. With regards to accuracy, I am not after the next thing that will win the Kentucky Challenge. 1MOA or close to it would be perfectly fine with me, as most of my shots are under 200, and I don't foresee shooting over 400. As far as velocity, it seems like the 275-300gr projectiles are favorites here, so if I could get 2400-2600 fps that would probably be plenty (with all the recoil my old man, who will also hunt with it, could stand). I figure I can open up the barrel channel on a Savage synthetic stock to handle the larger barrel, and can upgrade to a better stock later.
I recently was offered a 458 win mag pre-fit savage barrel for a little bit of nothing. It is an ER Shaw. I understand that a Shaw barrel is no Brux, but being in my 20s, I can't really justify putting a Brux on medium range hunting rifle. This got my wheels to turning. I have a 7mm Rem Mag rifle that could serve as the donor action, and could trim some of the belted 7mm brass cases way down to use as a primer carrier. Would this work? What all would it require in terms of a breech plug? Or would it end up costing me more that buying a quality blank and having it done up as a pre-fit by someone like Jeff or Arrowhead Sporting Goods? By the way, I do handload so I already have most of the equipment that I would need, and have some experience doing basic gunsmithing. Ultimately, I want a nice, SAFE rifle, and if that means that I have to save up a few more years, then I will do that.
For those of you who have built on a Savage CF action, what would you recommend? Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
JR
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Mar 26, 2018 18:33:16 GMT -5
So many ways and so many opinions here. Each has a personal preference. I personally use the savage Target Action and really love it. But my advice would be to not use barrel nut build. I would build it like a Rem. To keep as much barrel meat as possible in that area. My builds consist of a T/A barrel diameter of 1.250" for 8 " then taper to 1.0" @28"..not your typical hunting profile. But anything I nuilt in the future will still have that 1.250 for 5 to 8 inches. Safety factor
Drop
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Post by nippernut on Mar 26, 2018 19:00:56 GMT -5
if it was me I would build as above, I built one on a remage barrel but moved to a larger barrel pretty quick, next build for me is probably going to be a 40 caliber...
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Post by hillbill on Mar 26, 2018 19:03:34 GMT -5
As long as you have 4" of 1.250 froward of the lug you can shoot any reasonable load you wish to. I have done several Savage builds in the past but I'm a 700 or clone guy myself. with a reasonably good barrel and load 300 yards is a chip shot as long as you have a decent rest. for 200 I will carry my Apex every time and be well armed, Mr. buck will also be in grave danger.
Like Russell I'm not a barrel nut kind of guy but lots of guys use them with great results, the main thing you will run in to with the Savage is the stock choices, depending on the donor the factory will likely not work.
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Post by joelmoney on Mar 26, 2018 19:39:01 GMT -5
I am not sure what pressures your 458 barrel will handle. Pressures will be dictated by shank size. I know Jeff makes magnum module for HIS. You would not be able to use cut off brass for modules. Before committing to using the 458 barrel I would want to push a 45cal sabot/bullet combo down the barrel to get some idea of bore consistency. Others know much more than I about this subject than I do. You have certainly done some homework on the subject. Have you thought of a CVA break action?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 20:07:03 GMT -5
I have a Savage Target action mated with a Brux barrel, 4" of 1.20" forward of the lug. Don't like to but have shot some very hot loads with no issues, got a brake of course. Stocks were a little more of a challenge, but Boyds sells some reasonable ones. Sounds like you might have a good donor action so that's a big chunk of money saved right there. I honestly think any good barrel will get you amazing accuracy, with the right optics. Good luck.
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Post by hammertime on Mar 26, 2018 22:04:04 GMT -5
So many ways and so many opinions here. Each has a personal preference. I personally use the savage Target Action and really love it. But my advice would be to not use barrel nut build. I would build it like a Rem. To keep as much barrel meat as possible in that area. My builds consist of a T/A barrel diameter of 1.250" for 8 " then taper to 1.0" @28"..not your typical hunting profile. But anything I nuilt in the future will still have that 1.250 for 5 to 8 inches. Safety factor Drop I thought about the target action. I had moved away from it based on the trigger, which from all reports is amazing on the bench, but is probably not well suited for a primary hunting application, and due to the third screw making stock selection more difficult. My hope was to be able to simply open up the barrel channel on my current plastic stock, and use that for the time being, then upgrade to a laminate or other quality stock in the future. In my experience with Savage CF rifles, the cheapo plastic stocks can shoot accurately with some bedding, filing, and forend stiffening. I see all y'all's points about the barrel size being an issue. I did not yet buy the 458WM barrel, and didn't inspect it closely. My mistake was assuming that since chamber pressures in 458WM run up to 62k PSI that the barrel would withstand that. However, removing metal to thread for a breech plug would certainly weaken it. I see the 10ml-II is built on the small shank action. What if I used the 458 barrel and stuck with 10ml-II loads? IF it shoots accurately, that would provide plenty of energy to get out to 300+ yards. In theory, if it didn't, I could toss that barrel in the trash and buy a Brux blank, and use the same breech plug in it, and all I would be out would be my time (no big deal, I like this stuff), the cost of the 458 barrel, and however much it costs me to have the breech plug installed. Drop, what if I were to go somewhere in between the target action and a small shank? I saw a Savage 116 in 270 wsm at a gun shop the other day with a barrel that looked like it had been scraped on a barbed wire fence every day of the week and twice on Sunday. It is a large shank action, so it would be inherently stronger and could host a larger barrel profile, yet still utilize the barrel nut, and be a cheap-ish donor. It would be a bit lighter than a target action for carrying to the stand, and I think this one had the standard accutrigger, which is in most of my other rifles. Obviously if I did this, I'd have to drop the dough on a Brux. I'm less concerned with being on the ragged edge of maximum velocity, but I'm tired of cleaning black powder residue. I did consider doing a break action conversion, but two things turned me away from it. 1. By the time I bought one in 45/70, and had the work done to it to shoot smokeless, I'm not sure I'd have less in it than a 10ML-II. The main reason I wanted to build on the standard model 10 is that I have one that would easily work as a donor. Second reason is that I, for no logical reason, prefer bolt actions. Although I am sure that a break action would handle better in the woods. Other than fairly low costs and lighter weight/shorter length, are there any other compelling reasons to go that route? Thanks everyone for the replies. They have definitely helped point me in the right direction! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 22:19:40 GMT -5
The barrel nut is the mitigating factor not the barrel being chamber for breach plug . Your barrel has to be machined down for the barrel nut to thread on, thereby leaving less meat on the bone so to speak.
Also, and this is JMO, don't be so quick to dismiss the break open. Hankins can build you one that will be good to 300yd with no problem and it can use any ignition system out there. You should be able to do a break open for less than 1500.00. A bolt gun is gonna be in excess of 2k. I don't care how much you crunch the numbers it's gonna be more expensive than a break open. Is it worth it?? Good question.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Mar 27, 2018 5:39:44 GMT -5
Hammertime
By the time you go through all of the above mentioned you will have cloae to the sam $ and time invested. The trigger on the TA is very tunable to hunting weights. Not being terse here but you have to decide where you want to end up and how you want to get there. Take your time(as you seem to be) and research. I have had 2 MLII builds 2 rem 700 ML builds an Encore build. And 2 Savage T/A builds with another soon to be. With time and patients the stock problem can be solved. I have 2 set in Bouds Pro Varmint and really like them. Next two are going in McMillans. Its a slow process building...or getting one of these built. But I assure you that the wait and making the choices you want....not what you think you can get by with....will make you very happy in the end.
Drop
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Post by schunter on Mar 27, 2018 6:57:19 GMT -5
Looks like you are going to shoot the 45 sabotless with the bullets weights you have mentioned. Get the Brux and don't look back. The money is well spent up front and will save you some headaches with sizing. Don't forget you will need a sizing die as well.
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Post by dannoboone on Mar 27, 2018 12:38:51 GMT -5
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Post by kbrezlin on Mar 28, 2018 17:00:32 GMT -5
I have done 2 CF conversions on savage actions. One on a PTA and one on a 110. Both Jeff barreled without the nut with Brux barrels. On the PTA I just swapped the trigger spring to get a heavier pull weight to 2.5# for hunting.
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Post by hammertime on Apr 3, 2018 11:30:12 GMT -5
I have done 2 CF conversions on savage actions. One on a PTA and one on a 110. Both Jeff barreled without the nut with Brux barrels. On the PTA I just swapped the trigger spring to get a heavier pull weight to 2.5# for hunting. Is your 110 build on a small shank? What kind of velocities have you seen with it? I passed on the 458WM barrel. It looked like one of the lighter magnum contours. I am now leaning towards going with a Brux. I will probably let this be next winter's project, as I have more than enough projects going at the present. I still haven't decided on the action. I can definitely see the benefits of the Savage TA and the 700 for this application, my inclination towards the Savage 110 is born mostly out of familiarity and necessity. |
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Post by kbrezlin on Apr 3, 2018 18:23:51 GMT -5
PTA was a large shank, 110 was a small shank. If you loose the barrel nut and go with a 1.25 shank the nose of the plug is out past the threads of the tenon on the barrel, so the meat of the barrel is around the powder. I was shooting 325s at 2870fps with 91 grain of 3031. SAFE IN MY GUN.
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