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Post by 510smoker on Dec 9, 2017 11:54:27 GMT -5
I see some mention of "Brux Omega" and "Blackhorn builds"
My front loader has been parked for a few years while i was chasing other interests. I've picked it up again and want a better western gun. Idaho is currently the most restrictive state in the west. Idaho requires: full bore/caliber lead bullets-no sabot, loose powder, #11 or musket cap, open or peep sights-no glass, Minimum of .50 for elk.
I also want to be legal for Washington which has similar rules, they allow sabots but require an "exposed cap".
I want to build a better rifle based on these perameters with sub MOA accuracy and a range of 300 yds minimum. I see the sights being the weakest link, however I can currently shoot 1-2 MOA to 250 with my Omega and peeps.
My thoughts are using a .500 or ,510 barrel with a 1:18,20 or 22 twist and finish length of 26-28 inches. I'm hoping the get better velocity with barrel length and better stability with a faster twist.
I would like to SAFELY shoot the the most efficient "long range" lead bullet as fast as possible with accuracy being the final goal. Recoil is not an issue, I shoot enough I can manage recoil.
Currently I own a TC Omega and a Knight Bighorn. I would be willing to modify either one to acheive a better gun. Or should I find another action to build on? I don't really want to go to a bolt action like the Rem or savage if I don't have to.
Can you guys give advice on bullet selection, barrel length, Blackhorn build considerations, rate of twist considerations and anything i might not know to ask?
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AJ
Full Member
Meatasarus
Posts: 182
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Post by AJ on Dec 9, 2017 14:00:45 GMT -5
Using a musket cap you can't ignite the powder needed to give you the velocity to create a 300 yard elk gun. Accuracy at 300 is not a problem, but the lack of energy is the issue.
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Post by 10gaauto on Dec 9, 2017 15:21:14 GMT -5
Welcome to the board 510! Hope you get some information and direction to help you out.
Easiest way to go is find a White Rifle in the "504" cal. They are great and meet all your requirements. Stick with the #11 caps as no real advantage with musket caps. Use real black powder. Do some research and use those big full bore lead bullets the White is designed for. 300 on elk with a white is certainly doable as you're shooting bullets of 400+ grains and they will kill pretty much whatever you hit if in the right place. If you decide to go with a White hop over to Modern Muzzleloader as they have a forum dedicated to White rifles and you can find a great wealth of information there. The big advantage of a White is Doc made them with fast twist and they handle BIG heavy bullets very well.
If you decide to go different I'd get "Bestill" to put a fast twist barrel on the Omega. I have a Bestill Omega/Brux in 45 and it's a great gun. With the Omega you can certainly go with a longer barrel than 28 as the action is about 1/2" long with that drop block. Twist, well certainly no slower than 1/20 and personally I'd go 1/18 or 16. Only problem is the drop block isn't considered "open bolt or exposed cap" same for any closed bolt. That exposed cap regulation pretty much limits you to a "traditional" type ML or a slamfire type of which the White is the best available.
The 300 range with a smoker requires heavy bullets and that means fast twist. 1/28 aint going to work.
This reflects my experience and opinion, others will differ. Merry Christmas to all! 10 |
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Post by doug136 on Dec 9, 2017 15:59:58 GMT -5
10guageauto is right on .It's tuff to beat heavy lead and with all your requirments .
If you did want to shoot a more modern full bore 50 cal bullet such as a Barnes Thor bullet or the similar design Hornadys you could ignite Blackhorn with your musketcaps if you duplexed with a little fff black . I have even read where Doc White was shooting Blackhorn by doing this very thing. 5 to 10 grains black then Blackhorn.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Dec 9, 2017 18:04:22 GMT -5
A 50cal with a 1-24 twist would shoot pretty much any lead your shoulder can handle. IIRC Doc White shot upto a 600gr@1265fps in his 504s. At 250 yards that bullet retains over 1400fpe. Find a nice used or NOS White in 504 with one of the longer barrels. Such as a UltraMag, Super 91 or M98. You can tell at a glance cuz the 26" barrels had 2 ferrules. The 22" models had 1. He has a couple 504 25" customs made from new old parts on his website but they run about $600-700. M97 UltraMag  Super 91-II  M98 Elite Hunter  |
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Post by 510smoker on Dec 9, 2017 23:25:23 GMT -5
Thanks, That ultra mag is my kinda rifle! Price isn't bad either compared to today's quality ML's.
What would it cost to re-barrel my Omega in a fast twist? I actually have a Northwest Explorer. It's an Omega clone but has 1:48 twist and a little notch in the barrel over the cap so it's open. Easy to duplicate in a re-barrel.
You guys answered one thing I've suspected, I need a faster twist! I've been tinkering with a .458 Centerfire. It has a 1:16 twist and shoots 325-500gr bullets to 1" @ 100 yds. Why aren't ML's using faster twists???
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Post by doug136 on Dec 10, 2017 9:02:32 GMT -5
Some are now . I have a Knight Mountaineer in a 1-20 and a Knight 500 that is 1-18 . But they are .45s . Jeff Fisk (bestill) builds Omegas .Jeff can build you what you want . Send him a pm .
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Post by doug136 on Dec 10, 2017 9:08:31 GMT -5
Just curious what is the notch in the barrel for ? (In your explorer )
On a different note TC also made some fast twist Omegas and Encores .Both had 1-20 twist . They were early models I think back in the early 2000s . But then again I think they were only in .45s . I have 2 of these 1-20 Omegas . They will really shoot .
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Post by GMB54-120 on Dec 10, 2017 14:44:05 GMT -5
The notch is to comply with "exposed" ignition regulations in PacNW areas. The NW Explorer has a cutout in the top of the barrel. The idiots at T/C thought using a 1-48 was a good idea for some odd reason even though big lead is popular in that area.  |
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Post by GMB54-120 on Dec 10, 2017 14:54:21 GMT -5
Some are now . I have a Knight Mountaineer in a 1-20 and a Knight 500 that is 1-18 . But they are .45s . Jeff Fisk (bestill) builds Omegas .Jeff can build you what you want . Send him a pm . There were also a handfull of Mountaineer 50cals in 1-24. Knight never sold them though. They were all prototypes for testing. I know of 2 that sold on the boards. One of the guys who helps at Friendship got one of them. I cant remember who got the other one. Sabotloader on Modern Muzzleloader forum might have one. I know he had a M97 U-Mag 504 with a SWEET laminate stock.....I dont think you could pry that one out of him though since he lives in a PacNW regulated area. |
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Post by 510smoker on Dec 10, 2017 15:26:34 GMT -5
Exactly! I bet some engineer who doesn't even shoot muzzy's googled it and since it worked for "buffalo guns", it should work today...
TC has had several flops from apparently not doing enough research or R&D TESTING. Except for the twist rate, I love the explorer.
I as going to attach a pic but something won't let me. Anyway, I put a Boyd's stock on it, bedded the lugs and forend with a brass ferrel for the ramrod, made brass action screw escutcheon-pillars, ported the bullet starter, peep sight/globe front and added a scope rail in case I ever get to use one.
With 225gr FTX @2400fps and 250 FTX's @ 2200 fps in sabots, it will shoot 4-6 inches all day at 250 with my best 3 shot group being 1 1/2". Any bullet lighter than 225, or heavier than 275, or slower and they won't stabilize in a sabot anyway. I haven't tried big conicals yet. I shot a few Powerbelts just to see, as usual, waste of time and lead.
It's a killer sabot gun but I need a lead shooter to hunt ID and CO. I bought some BOR Locks that will work for CO but haven't tested them yet.
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Post by 10gaauto on Dec 10, 2017 21:22:05 GMT -5
Early on the faster twist guns did not treat the sabots of the era very well and accuracy suffered, plus the faster twist are reported to be harder to clean, another smoker drawback to the uninitiated. So slower twists were the norm. Now better sabots and faster twists are good for those who know but the mfg industry is really slow to change.
Yes on the Jeff Fisk at "Bestill" creations does great work rebarreling the Omega. I have another Omega to get done when I get some build $ in hand.
Good luck and have at it! 10
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Post by GMB54-120 on Dec 11, 2017 13:51:51 GMT -5
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Post by 510smoker on Dec 11, 2017 19:53:37 GMT -5
That's something to consider. Doing a SML barrel would allow me to use it as a SML in areas that are open should i want to. Premium barrel, premium bullets, high velocity! Sounds like fun.
The kicker of the western rules is if you want to use a muzzle gun during a rifle season, there are no restrictions. smokeless, sabots, scopes, whatever!
It's only in muzzle only or weapon restricted areas the restrictions apply. Have two breech plugs made and I'm in business for either one, I like it.
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Post by doug136 on Dec 12, 2017 6:40:04 GMT -5
Same breech plug will work for smokless or Black . I go back and forth all the time with my custom rifles .
Talking about the Omega platform . I have 2 1-20 twist .45 TC Omegas . They made these barrels I think in the early 2000s . Anyway I took a boy hunting last weekend that has never killed a deer . He shot a spike at 170 yards with my Omega shooting 85 grains of Blackhorn . That's always cool to help someone kill their first deer !
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