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Post by kskaggs on Feb 1, 2017 8:18:27 GMT -5
Does a button rifled barrel foul worse than a cut rifled barrel? The reason I ask is because I am sizing my neighbors bullets for his bad bull and I sized the bullets on a fouled barrel and now I am having to size them more after another 15 shots. My brux the bullets load the same at 5 shots and then at 20 shots it's the same. I have only sized for cut rifled barrels this is the first barrel I have seen like this. I believe it is a shilen.
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Post by hillbill on Feb 1, 2017 12:43:09 GMT -5
Generally speaking in my experience i would say yes, buttoned barrels just seem to be more inconsistent in barrel dimension and when you really think about it a low spot leaves a place for carbon to build up thus decreasing the barrel dimension after repeated firing. Only my opion of course but I have pushed bullets down lots and lots of both barrels and that's my findings.
I no longer used buttoned barrels, not to say they are bad I just find cut barrels to be more consistent.
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Post by dannoboone on Feb 1, 2017 12:52:08 GMT -5
He could try using a bore brush when the bullets begin going down
too hard.
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Post by kskaggs on Feb 1, 2017 13:17:23 GMT -5
I'm afraid now when he cleans the barrel the bullet is gonna fall in!!
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Post by elkman1310 on Feb 1, 2017 13:58:47 GMT -5
Hillbill I don't know what button rifle barrels you have used in the past but a button rifle barrel is every bit as uniform as a cut rifle barrel a cut rifle will have a slighter deeper land and groove that's it. This has been a long heated argument which one is better the vast majority of records set and held to this day are from Button rifled barrels
Your sized bullet will always fit a little looser in a clean barrel compared to a fouled barrel. With the Bad Bull your shooting 130 to 140grs of H4350 that barrel will have more powder fouling buildup strictly because of the large amount of powder going down the barrel not because it is a button rifled barrel. I do believe Bad Bull uses Shilen barrels I have never had one with any tight spots and they will shoot tiny groups consistently.
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Post by hillbill on Feb 1, 2017 15:01:03 GMT -5
I am only going by the MZ barrels i have used in the past and like I said it's only my opinion but since switching to cut rifled barrels i have yet to send a barrel back because of dimensional inconsistencies that I experienced with buttoned barrels.
I have had buttoned barrels that shot great but overall the cut barrels have been much more consistent.
One thing for sure, If there are any dimensional variances in a bore one can certainly feel it with a sized bullet.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Feb 1, 2017 15:16:00 GMT -5
Everyone of my Krieger barrels have loaded smoother than any of my button rifle barrels. Same loads
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 15:34:39 GMT -5
My Brux loads smoother than my button rifled Douglas. both are MZ barrels. I like them both.
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Post by elkman1310 on Feb 1, 2017 16:11:44 GMT -5
You guys are worrying about the wrong thing. I actually believe a muzzleloader barrel can be to smooth and it will hurt accuracy. If your loading your barrel and you feel chatter you have not got your bullet sized correctly. I will be doing a build in the next few weeks with a Brux and it will have to really show me something really good to even consider changing my mind about switching from Shilen to something else. I have had two other Brux go through my shop that I repaired breech plugs on and they certainly didn't stand out in my book as being any better than any other barrel I have used.
If a barrel is dimensionally straight from one end to the other there will be no difference in accuracy. There my be a difference on how well the gun was built and that can certainly have a impact on how well the gun will shoot. And then it comes down to the shooters ability to shoot small groups some people are not capable of shooting small groups and that is not a slap at anyone it is just a fact that Richard points out when I post small groups I have shot it takes years of practice.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2017 16:41:35 GMT -5
Very interesting information!! Great read!
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Feb 1, 2017 17:04:56 GMT -5
I havent felt that my accuracy suffered in the least between cut vs button rifling. What I have noticed is "chuggy" loading in the button. Bullet will move then hit a spot where it moves harder then easier then hard .But when I clean that same barrel the next bullet glides down like butter but gets.progressively more difficult to load. Then run a brush down it and a patxh and its better again Also I find a cut rifle barrel is somewhat easier to get clean faster. Not taking a slap either but I can shoot small groups. ( as long as no one is watching) lol
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Post by hillbill on Feb 1, 2017 18:06:25 GMT -5
My point is this
the end to end consistency in the buttoned barrels I have used in these guns has been all over the board, most have been great BUT I got extremely tired of sending barrels back to be relapped (the ones that weren't), the exact reason I quit using them. some button barrel makers may be able to get it right, I don't doubt that at all, likely the best shooting barrel I have had was a Mcgowen pistol bore 18 twist. it shot everything I fed it extremely well.
All I am saying is in the barrels I have dealt with in these guns (now over 100) the cut barrels have been hands down more consistent from end to end.
As far as sizing goes? all I know is what I feel when I push a bullet down and believe me I have pushed a few thousand down in the last 12 years. when a barrel is choked at the bottom or at the top so much that it dictates the bullet size be falling down loose in the rest of the bore there is a problem with said barrel. I have yet to have that problem in a cut barrel, not to say that I never will,(20 plus barrels), just not yet.
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Post by jims on Feb 1, 2017 18:34:30 GMT -5
I generally like cut rifling but my two most inconsistent in size were Kriegers and they were cut. I was disappointed in both of them. The first was sent back and they reworked it but ultimately they felt they could not correct it and sent me a new one. The new one was better but not great. These were both .375s. That was the only barrel I had to send back because of bore size concerns, early on I had some difficulties with a McGowan .45 but they were not bore issues.
I have a Douglas .45 that is a button and it is quite good.
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Post by Richard on Feb 1, 2017 20:59:05 GMT -5
We are all entitled to our opinions..........hopefully based on real experiences.............NOT what someone else said! Elkman and myself talk from time to time and are in agreement with a lot of stuff but do occasionally have discrepancies. This is human nature? For instance..........were were discussing the Sierra new 110 gr. 6mm Match King and he indicated that a bullet of that weight and length would need at least a 7.5" twist to stabilize? Sierra says 1 - 7"? I have shot them two weeks in a row now at 300 yards out of my 1 - 8.5" twist Brux barrel (6mm BRX cartridge) at 2940 fps) and both weeks, registered 1.1" five shot groups at 300 yards in terrible mirage conditions?--------------Which goes to show you, one needs to test themselves to make a valid determination! Now........will they shoot at 600 or 1K? That remains to be seen. I have a 600 yard match coming up on the 11th. and will see how they do during the sight in period........if they look like they are hitting consistently, I will probably put them on the record targets? Getting back to barrels........I have also had both Shilen and Brux muzzle loader barrels and can say from personal use, that the cut rifled Brux barrels have allowed my bullets to be seated with a smoother feel than the Shilen's (buttoned). Carl may be right that there are a lot of records that have/had been set with buttoned rifled barrels.......................I believe mainly in the short range BR game. But form what I have observed in match reports (equipment list) and from personal competition, the majority of shooters/winners are using either Brux, Krieger or Bartlein (all cut rifled) barrels. I am not looking to step on Carl's toes, but reporting honestly in my opinion based on my experience, that cut rifled muzzle loader barrels seem to have a better feel when pushing a bullet down the bore.  |
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Post by elkman1310 on Feb 1, 2017 22:12:45 GMT -5
Everyone can use want they like and if that feel at the bottom of your barrel is what floats your boat then use it. I go by proven consistent results in a muzzleloader and I have not installed a Shilen barrel that would not shoot into the .200-.300 range with cheap 300gr FTX or SST bullets without doing anything but load the barrel. I will not use a Krieger barrel for a muzzleloader they all have a taper bore and most cut rifle barrels will have a taper bore. The first thing I do when I receive my barrels is clean and inspect the bore and push a bullet through to check how the bullet passes through.
Shilen makes a lot of .457 barrels there not .458 they are design for black cartridge lead bullets they happen to work extremely well for our 45Caliber smokeless muzzleloaders. They don't require duplex loads and I have never had one that required a few fouler shots to get them to shot accurately the first cold shot is always right into the group that is a plus for a button rifled barrel.
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Post by doug136 on Feb 2, 2017 12:06:05 GMT -5
Very very interesting guys. I like the debate without getting nasty . Like I said you guys made it a very interesting read. Thanks
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Post by kskaggs on Feb 2, 2017 12:22:06 GMT -5
Elkman this shilen is definitely tighter than my brux because I have to go a full setting more on the hankins adjustable die when sizing different bullets. Have not used a mich. to see exact difference.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Feb 2, 2017 12:34:39 GMT -5
I want a Brux next. Currently i have a Douglas Prem XX that ive only used with sabots and a Pancor 45 super match grade instead of the standard Pacnor. The Pacnor SM is extremely smooth sabotless.
For the money though the Brux seems like a excellent barrel
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Post by kskaggs on Feb 2, 2017 12:38:25 GMT -5
I have had 3 brux and I could shoot the same sized bullet on 2 of 3 barrels that's pretty consistent if you asks me!!!
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Post by Richard on Feb 2, 2017 13:15:32 GMT -5
The Shilen barrels I have had (ML'ers) were definitely tighter dimensionally. That...........has nothing to do with the feel of the bullet going down the barrel or how well they shoot?...........That is just a matter tightening up your sizing die to make the bullet fit That bore size!
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