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Post by elkman1310 on Jan 6, 2017 15:42:10 GMT -5
Well today was a sight in with a customers gun. This is the gun I did a report on about the Leupold dovetail bases failing twice. I now has a new 20MOA base and Burris low Tactical rings with 6 screws. The 20 MOA base extended out to far ahead of the action and interfered with the front of the scope so that in unused portion got cut off and also the base is milled back so you can get a primer on the bolt nose. The scope is a Vortex Viper 30mm 4x16x50 nice scope not as clear as the Burris Veracity but then it doesn't cost as much.
This gun has a Shilen 1-20 barrel in a Sendro taper. It is also 27" long . This gun is sighted in with 73grs of IMR 4198 and 300gr Parker MH that is a stout load and it consistently shoots small groups. So since this barrel has a much longer barrel then my Douglas test gun I wanted to see just how much of a difference the extra barrel length would make. The temp today was 25deg just like my other test temp's so that made it a even test.
I loaded 96grs of IMR 3031 and hooked the magneto speed up and shot one shot the velocity was right there with the other barrels 2939 But!!!!!!!!!!! the Federal primer definitely showed signs of leakage. Mainly from around the rear cup . The 73gr IMR 4198 load did not show any signs of excess pressure.
Like I have been posting every gun is different and 96grs of IMR 3031 is clearly to much pressure for this gun. Since the customer is happy shooting IMR 4198 and has had zero problems using it there is no reason for him to change just to get a extra 50 fps.
Will IMR 3031 work in a short barrel yes it will. Will it be accurate that all depends on your firearm and your shooting ability because the powder seems very consistent. If your looking for that little bit of extra speed give it a try for all practical purposes my go to load for all the M/L'S I build will be 73grs of IMR 4198 and a 300 gr bullet.
There is a picture of a Fed primer sitting on top of the display it doesn't clearly show the leakage that I saw but it was there and that is something you don't want to see in a 209 primer.
  
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Post by sa1000 on Jan 6, 2017 16:02:56 GMT -5
When I switch over the the heavier bullets I got flat primers at 95 grs of imr3031 like I would with a centerfire that's getting up in pressure that's why I backed down to 94grs.Good report elk.
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Post by sa1000 on Jan 6, 2017 16:03:49 GMT -5
Mine has Jeff's plug and modules.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 17:22:39 GMT -5
Good info. Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 17:36:16 GMT -5
Interesting catch on the primer leakage, is it because it built to much pressure or that it might need head-spaced a little better? With Federal Primers do you notice them being inconsistent round wise or length wise or any at all?
Good info thanks for the report.
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Post by elkman1310 on Jan 6, 2017 18:25:18 GMT -5
Head spacing is not a problem. Once that cup starts to change shape it is not long before you will see signs of leakage that is a clear warning sign that you are well into the maximum limit this primer will handle. I believe Jeff has had issues with his primers and primer pocket also and recommends backing off on the powder charge if you run into that.
I really don't want to get into changing the flame channel size or go to a bigger bushing to chase around pressure problems. My two personal guns will handle 96grs with no issues this one today probably
around 92grs or 93grs would be safe.
Imr 3031 is a good powder for 300gr bullets and heavier and some have posted good results with 275gr bullets So we can be thankful that we have some choices with powder.
Depending on your breech plug design you should start low and work up. 85grs to start and then go slowly up from there. With IMR 3031 you should be able to get to a very safe velocity of 2850fps with a 300gr bullet in just about any barrel length you want to use because from 22 1/2 inches to 27" I only saw about 20fps spread and that is really nothing.
Now if Kyles gets some of those new 300gr bullets ready I will use IMR 3031 to try and get them to 1,000 yards
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Post by sa1000 on Jan 6, 2017 19:06:57 GMT -5
Have you shot the accumaxs that far?Next week after our seasons out I'm you going to shoot the 325 accumaxs at 800 and 1000 just to see what happens.Even though I'll be sub sonic at 900 or a little before.
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Post by sa1000 on Jan 6, 2017 19:09:41 GMT -5
Applied balistics app says 960 we'll see
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Post by elkman1310 on Jan 6, 2017 19:24:58 GMT -5
I want to put them on target at 1,000 yards. You really need a honest B.C. of at least .400 or higher. And even at that B.C. you will have big problems at 900 plus yards especially in any kind of wind. Now if your just trying to shoot a rock or a metal swinger that is totally different than what I what to do.
I want to shoot groups. Probably only 3 shots because of the time it takes to reload and condition changes because is can see the effect it has on target at 600 yards. I have shot 2 1/2 inch 3 shot groups at 600 yards in good conditions with out doing anything special. Just load and shoot not sorting bullet weights or anything else related to benchrest shooting.
The 325 would perform better than the 300gr at 1,000 yards So I believe I would go with that weight and a go charge of IMR 3031 and see what happens
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Post by sa1000 on Jan 6, 2017 19:33:25 GMT -5
I'm with you on the higher BC I'm going to try some 325 aeromaxs when Kyle gets them out for everybody.I'm just playing to see what they do on steel and paper.But I'm also seeing where I draw the line on shoots at deer too.These SML are pretty amazing.With the set up I have now with a good wind call or no wind 700 is very doable.Just put my NXS on it this week to get better glass for the longer ranges.
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Post by elkman1310 on Jan 6, 2017 20:23:23 GMT -5
I have been a serious long range hunter for over 40 years. And I love shooting muzzleloaders but no matter how good they are they are a very poor choice for long range hunting strictly from the stand point of you have got only one shot to make a clean kill on that deer if you hit and wound it simply takes to long to reload and get back onto that animal again if it is hit or not. I know that in some states this is the only weapon you can use to try and shoot long distances so your stuck using it.
Here in Pa. I wouldn't even think about using one of my muzzleloaders we do have some short hills that range from 500 yards to 900 yards but your shooting between trees on a steep mountain side you have to be able to reload your rifle and keep the deer in your scope at all times you simply need the right shooting bench and equipment and a good spotter it is not a one man sport we normally have 3 to 6 guys that hunt in our group. You need people glassing all day long and it wears you out to stay in glasses all day.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 21:12:19 GMT -5
With a longer barrel, barrel time is increased which shows the weakness of the 209 primer cup. The load is actually lower in pressure than the 73gr load of 4198. With increased barrel.time, a larger flame channel is needed in a 209 system. Later, I will pressure trace both loads.
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Post by doug136 on Jan 6, 2017 21:48:55 GMT -5
Thanks I was wondering that . I thought the 3031 load was suppose to create less pressure than the 4198 load . I wanted to ask the question but didn't want to look stupid .
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Post by Joe on Jan 7, 2017 10:55:41 GMT -5
Great info. I also believe in heavier/longer bullets for longer range. The old black powder long range rifles used 400gr and up. Looking forward to seeing more postings. Thanks.
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Post by elkman1310 on Jan 7, 2017 10:57:19 GMT -5
The pressure tests should answer the questions were only guessing at right now. IMR3031 is burning longer down the barrel which is helping to increase the velocity. At any rate 96grs of IMR 3031 and 300gr bullet is a stout load. The 209 primer maybe causing a little high pressure than a LRMP system. Why don't one of you HIS shooters test the same load and see what you get for velocity.
78grs of IMR or H4198 is definitely a high pressure load with a 300gr bullet what is the PSI supposed to be on that load?
The other variable is the Fed 209 A primer I didn't check this primer for AOL. Some are really short they all vary .001 to .004 in length. The bolt did close nice and snug on the primer so I don't think that was a problem it just appeared as leakage between the cup and the outer housing.
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Post by nyhunter on Jan 7, 2017 11:12:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the report and all the testing info, much appreciated.
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Post by doug136 on Jan 7, 2017 11:31:29 GMT -5
This is very interesting to me because I have had some of the same problems with 209s with heavier bullets . The loads were actually suppose to have less pressure . I figured that my 209s were not holding because the pressure was longer in the barrel . It sounds like I may have been correct in my thinking.
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Post by elkman1310 on Jan 7, 2017 12:04:40 GMT -5
I think if you wanted to shoot strictly one powder in your muzzleloader either IMR 4198 or IMR 3031 then your plug should be setup for that powder. IMR 3031 may require a flame channel only a few thousand large in diameter or simply change the bushing from .030 to say .035 or even .040 .
I tested IMR 3031 in three different guns which all use the same plug design with the same .030 bushing. My hunting gun I tested up to 99grs and the primer looked ok but the velocity didn't go up much from 96 grs and the accuracy fell off and the recoil increased a lot. My test gun with the Douglas barrel has zero problems handling 96grs of IMR 3031 but this gun for what ever reason showed signs of pressure.
Also this gun shoots extremely well with IMR 4198 and the customer is very happy with it so why change something when it is working so well.
Doug send me a PM
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