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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2016 16:30:41 GMT -5
So I ordered some 302 Bombs from 7mmFreak and patiently wait their arrival.  I was going to try full form but after I thought about it decided I wanted to stick with smooth form until I get more time to shoot. I've read and heard that after 500 yards people experiencing tumbling with smooth form bullets which is why people are shooting full form for longer distances. My question/idea is if you were to under size the smooth form bullet then knurl back up to get a "rifling cut" into bullet during loading can you or have you experienced better long range shooting?? I will find out soon enough but I wanted to hear of any other person's experiences and findings. To give me a leg up when I get a chance to go shoot. Any ideas and thoughts greatly appreciated. |
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Post by Richard on Aug 11, 2016 19:47:27 GMT -5
After seeing a pretty good indent in those bullets I caught, I doubt that little bit of knurling would amount more? I was surprised at how much was engraved on even the tougher Hornady's. I know what you are saying and it definitely would not hurt.
So this tumbling? Who is coming up with this theory? IF the bullet is engraving the rifling to start with and winds up with those groves cut in, it obviously is not "slipping" in the bore or you would not have the groves..right? You can not spin the bullet faster than your rate of rifling whether the groves are .002" or .004".
I tend to be somewhat of a "Doubting Thomas!"...........Show me, don't tell me? If I had the range to shoot 600 yards I would take two bullets...........Lets say the Bomb that is .452" and his .458" Full Form the .458 and smooth size the .452 and shoot them side by side at your 600 yard target. Then you will know? Not the theory from some internet "wanna be" shooter..........and we know they exist!
I had my doubts on the bullet engraving but proved it to myself by my own testing that they do, in fact, engrave! Maybe not 100% but enough to give me 1/2 MOA on a regular basis at 300 yards. ou are not going to get accuracy at any distance unless your spinning the bullet.
Just my opinion Chad!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2016 21:31:50 GMT -5
I have little experience past 500 yards and not a lot past 400 yards at least not like most long range shooters.
The other situation maybe a slower twist. My McGowan barrel has a 1-24" if I remember.
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Post by doug136 on Aug 11, 2016 22:09:16 GMT -5
You need to find a 600 yard range Richard !
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Post by bestill458 on Aug 11, 2016 22:11:20 GMT -5
I have seen no advantage shooting bombs fullform vs smooth at 500 yds.
Actually smooth form with light loading pressure has been my best.
Have never experienced tumbling 1-20 twist with 2350 fps mv
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2016 22:12:04 GMT -5
Is a smooth sized bullet engaging upon ignition or is it going down the barrel some before engaging/obturating..?
IIRC Deadeye in his long range testing was having some tumbling issues and thought that fulforming improved stabilization, this was @600 and 700yds .....
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Post by fishhawk on Aug 12, 2016 6:40:30 GMT -5
I would think a faster twist is needed if they tumble at longer ranges. I doubt it is a full vs smooth issue.
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Post by schunter on Aug 12, 2016 6:47:28 GMT -5
Is a smooth sized bullet engaging upon ignition or is it going down the barrel some before engaging/obturating..? IIRC Deadeye in his long range testing was having some tumbling issues and thought that fulforming improved stabilization, this was @600 and 700yds ..... The engraving I have seen while shooting blackhorn appears to be at time of ignition but that is just my opinion. |
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Post by schunter on Aug 12, 2016 6:50:15 GMT -5
I have little experience past 500 yards and not a lot past 400 yards at least not like most long range shooters. The other situation maybe a slower twist. My McGowan barrel has a 1-24" if I remember. As far as I know the .45 McGowens are 1:22 unless you special ordered one. |
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Post by Hank on Aug 12, 2016 6:54:34 GMT -5
The engraving happens at ignition when the pressures are at their highest...
I would also say you could use a faster twist barrel to get a little extra spin on the bullet..
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2016 7:13:48 GMT -5
I have little experience past 500 yards and not a lot past 400 yards at least not like most long range shooters. The other situation maybe a slower twist. My McGowan barrel has a 1-24" if I remember. As far as I know the .45 McGowens are 1:22 unless you special ordered one. Thanks I couldn't remember what it is but I'd prefer faster. Keep debating on ordering a new barrel and getting a faster twist with a little longer barrel. |
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Post by deadeye on Aug 12, 2016 7:49:41 GMT -5
fwiw .
2011...pac 1/22 smooth formed 327 lost stability around 650yds--load was n110/varget.......load was very accurate until that distance.
same gun but a duplex of h4198/3031. was able to get to 771 yds. moa with only just a few shots.
2016...brux 1/20 smooth formed lost stability @ 623yds with straight h4198....
subbed a veggie wad without re benching @ 200yd for accuracy.. results @ 650yds no keyholing but not good groups,i'm guessing still a stability issue.
the above guns were sized differently. the pac when going long liked about 40-50lbs loading pressure. both guns were in the 2670fps range.
here's the kicker- my brux 1/20 liked it sized say hankins style for best accuracy,if you tighten the bullet on this barrel it would intermittingly spit some fliers.
brux did not like wad less or loading tight & best accuracy at 200yd bench was with wool wads that tumbled @ 623 but the less accurate veg's were holding some stability@623yds.
to say the least very confusing to me.
up on deck hopefully while in Colorado I hope to launch some long ones w/ nickel girl. a brux 1/18 that seem to like sizing hankins style. 2920fps/but we will see what she does in the upcoming shoot. I have not had time to return to the bench to see & may not until a few days before the challenge. this girl seems to like wadless but with the results I got I did not even attempt to try wool or veg's....only 15 shots down the tube. IIRC- the bullet stability factor programs were good on the twist rate per bullet length chart.
so I think we are really not getting 100% obturation & maybe very close since we have many shooting awesome groups out to 500yds. its either a slight non obturation or twist stability issue.
RR- if it were me when you go long if theres any wind, & if you can try to situate & it directly from behind. I would also say get to 500yds & if ok jump to 625-650yds to see if you are stable,if so go to around 750-800yds. this is very time consuming & a spotter is most valuable!
just my .02cts & I hope you are successful-post your results! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2016 8:47:37 GMT -5
Thanks deadeye,
I can get to 600 yards but finding an area where I can get beyond will prove to be difficult. I know some ground north of town that may yield longer ranges but I'll have to wait till corn is out.
When I heard tumbling was an issue my thought it could be the bullets were not obturating quickly enough into rifling.
My plan of attack is to size down enough I can knurl back up enough for a snug fit. Along with using a booster of clays with 3031. My goal is around 2700fps.
I'll report back as soon as I get a chance to hit the range.
Thank you for your comments
Chad
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2016 8:54:55 GMT -5
The engraving happens at ignition when the pressures are at their highest... I would also say you could use a faster twist barrel to get a little extra spin on the bullet.. Whats happening between ignition and from .25 milliseconds and .5 milliseconds which is when the pressure is at its peak according to pressure traces...? |
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Post by deadeye on Aug 12, 2016 11:27:53 GMT -5
Thanks deadeye, I can get to 600 yards but finding an area where I can get beyond will prove to be difficult. I know some ground north of town that may yield longer ranges but I'll have to wait till corn is out. When I heard tumbling was an issue my thought it could be the bullets were not obturating quickly enough into rifling. My plan of attack is to size down enough I can knurl back up enough for a snug fit. Along with using a booster of clays with 3031. My goal is around 2700fps. I'll report back as soon as I get a chance to hit the range. Thank you for your comments Chad i sure would have liked to have 3 pre-sized for a tighter fit@650 fit just to see. that would have possibly answered the question.
I have a feeling this might have come up before with other innovators maybe suggesting for full -form for extra long distance.
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Post by Richard on Aug 12, 2016 14:42:43 GMT -5
Doug..........I shoot at a 600 yard range for benchrest competition. As long as its a registered match, any IBS-NBRSA member can pay and shoot the match. If you wanted to come the next day?...........You have to be a member. The problem is the range is 65 miles away and the fee is around $1,000.00 to join. Therefor I am not joining. I do have an private air strip that I have access to and permission to shoot but........its a PIA! I have to bring my bench and all my gear and would be out in the open. Need to bring my own targets to set up........Do I sound like a wuss??? Probably, I just don't have enough interest in trying prove something that is of no value to me? There is no 600 or 500 or 400 or any yardage formal or informal competition? The closest thing to competition in muzzle loading is at Hank's and that is basically out to 400. I know my rifle will stabilize to 400 as I snuck a shot early in the morning at our range (we are not supposed to shoot from the point I did).......420 yards. Impact was a perfectly round hole 4" low (6:00)of my POA. So I really do not need 5 or 600? BTW, the new Brux CF build with the HIS is 1 - 18 twist. Why?  Because I heard Deadeye got his barrel in 1 - 18 and I wanted to be like him:) |
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Post by doug136 on Aug 12, 2016 21:15:06 GMT -5
Lol so is mine ! Just like to read your results Richard . After the crops come off I'm gonna do some longe range testing also . I can get a 1/2 mile on our property . Never even thought about shooting beyond 200 yards before the bug bit me !
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Because I heard Deadeye got his barrel in 1 - 18 and I wanted to be like him:)