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Post by Richard on Jul 20, 2016 11:19:47 GMT -5
Hazy 72* and humid at 7:30 a.m. Various loads and bullet capture………sort of? Initial fouling and scope adjustments for .45 Brux. Velocity and loads listed. Group #1. 100 yds. This group will also be a part of the #’s f, 6, 7 and 8. Did not start that way but rather then re-shooting it on individual targets I let is stand as it was! 300 SST, 6/65.8 – Clays/H-4198 no wad. Three shots av. =2773 with a 8 fps ES and a .260” group. Group #2 same load at 300. After two sighter shots put two bullets side by side just under the dot. The third shot was fired on the adjacent 22” long box stuffed with rags and backed with a piece of rug folded several times. That bullet nicked the dot. All three shots measured 1.1” For group #3 I put one shot on the target using the square for my aiming point and the bullet hitting just low…………..a scope adjustment was made and I then fired two shots at the target on the box. You can see the POA and POI. Doing a rough measurement, the 300 AccuMax grouped 1.2” (figuring the shot at the box was before the scope adjustment) Next, a five shot group was shot with the 300 AccuMax and the same 6/65.8-ClaysH-4198 load and a windage adjustment. I figured the first shot should have been in the center………but it was not? It went far right and low……Hmmm? #2 came up to the right elevation but still to the right? Shots 2,4 and 5 moved in to where they should have been? Note how the velocity dropped from the first 3 shot group (incl. the box) from 2796 to 2775? The cooling rod was used intermittently throughout the days shooting and the barrel never got warmer then what a baby could touch without crying? Did wind play a role in those far right shots?  If it did I was not noticing it? Back to 100 yards and a continuation of that #1 group: #5 300 SST, 7/65-Clays/H-4198 #6 300 SST, 5/66-Clays/H-4198 #7 300 SST, 10/60- Clays/H-4198 #8 300 SST, 7/75- Clays/3031 These loads all grouped pretty well but #8 did exceptionally well for five shots. The only draw back is the ES was very high………which did not matter at 100 yards but could be a problem at longer distances? Moving on the box stuffed with rags and what I found on the two bullets I was able to recover. All three bullets completely tore thru the box which was tightly stuffed with rags……End to End! There was a piece of rug folded to give four thicknesses prior to entering the dirt……..which has a lot of clay and mica. I recovered the one SST which weighted 294 gr. and one AccuMax which weighted 290 gr. As can be seen, there is evidence of rifling being engraved on the bullets; Not very deep but definitely enough to properly stabilize them. I would still use .450” when I calculate group size since not all bullets will engrave equally. So, I have to eat a little crow when I previously indicated I did not think there was much in the way of engraving taking place on smooth sized bullets! There is, but not fully engraved.        |
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Post by Kyle on Jul 20, 2016 11:49:55 GMT -5
Larry thanks you for your business and so do I! 290 grains of weight retention seems good for a 300 grain bullet. I suspect that my heavier bullets will yield higher weight retention than the 275's. Neat test Richard!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2016 12:32:24 GMT -5
Richard excellent report. I intend on trying some 3031 I picked up also.
Who is Larry?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2016 12:49:24 GMT -5
So the black streaks/lines are the blowby..? Your brux has 6 lands ?,Right... The sst swelled up like a pumpkin,you spankt it ,lol...Thanks for the report...
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Post by itneverends22 on Jul 20, 2016 13:27:59 GMT -5
Excellent shooting,and report! awesome test!!
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Post by Kyle on Jul 20, 2016 13:32:37 GMT -5
Richard excellent report. I intend on trying some 3031 I picked up also. Who is Larry? Potterfield |
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Post by schunter on Jul 20, 2016 14:52:48 GMT -5
You can clearly see some engraving of the bullet. Good test Richard! I wonder what goodies were in that Midway box....
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Post by hillbill on Jul 20, 2016 17:14:01 GMT -5
very worth while test's Richard!
was the AM round enough to measure?
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Post by Richard on Jul 20, 2016 22:37:59 GMT -5
No Bill,now that you mention it, I took some readings and they varied in and around .452 to .455. The bullet was not perfectly round but that was the best I could get. There definitely was some obturation but probably not complete.
Rambler................Larry Potterfield is the president of Midway.
Actually, don't remember what was in that box?
Hard to determine what the black represented? Could be carbon from inside the bore which rubs off on the bullet? Remember, this barrels pick up fouling up near the muzzle. This is evident when you go to seat a bullet and it goes down hard for the first couple of inches and then gets loose the rest of the way down. So, when that bullet exits thru that tight area, it could possibly pick up on that fouling!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2016 0:38:49 GMT -5
So why wouldn't we shoot .455 or .456 barrels, since we are only engaging 1 to 2 thousandsths and being accurate ....Bestill was 4months ahead of me on this theory/trend.....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2016 6:51:29 GMT -5
No Bill,now that you mention it, I took some readings and they varied in and around .452 to .455. The bullet was not perfectly round but that was the best I could get. There definitely was some obturation but probably not complete. Rambler................ Larry Potterfield is the president of Midway.Actually, don't remember what was in that box? Hard to determine what the black represented? Could be carbon from inside the bore which rubs off on the bullet? Remember, this barrels pick up fouling up near the muzzle. This is evident when you go to seat a bullet and it goes down hard for the first couple of inches and then gets loose the rest of the way down. So, when that bullet exits thru that tight area, it could possibly pick up on that fouling! I knew that, didn't know who or which Larry Kyle was referring too....  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2016 6:57:26 GMT -5
So why wouldn't we shoot .455 or .456 barrels, since we are only engaging 1 to 2 thousandsths and being accurate ....Bestill was 4months ahead of me on this theory/trend..... Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it seems to me that regardless of barrel diameter the bullet/s are only going to obturate so much with any given powder charge, weather it be a .458 barrel or .452?? |
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Post by bestill458 on Jul 21, 2016 7:29:32 GMT -5
So why wouldn't we shoot .455 or .456 barrels, since we are only engaging 1 to 2 thousandsths and being accurate ....Bestill was 4months ahead of me on this theory/trend..... In reference i been testing .450/.456 Krieger custom barrel with blackhorn to see if helped with smooth forming and lower pressure blackhorn loads. I cant say at this point ive gained anything. Since barrel actually measures .449/.456 & compared to .450/.458 brux its a wash. Ive been playing with sizing.458 bullets down to .455 then fullforming and that is showing promise. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2016 9:56:30 GMT -5
So why wouldn't we shoot .455 or .456 barrels, since we are only engaging 1 to 2 thousandsths and being accurate ....Bestill was 4months ahead of me on this theory/trend..... Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it seems to me that regardless of barrel diameter the bullet/s are only going to obturate so much with any given powder charge, weather it be a .458 barrel or .452?? I'm thinking that the closer you approach to filling the bore completely ,the more efficient a load will be....less blowby.. Since we are only engaging 1 to 2 thousandths of rifling,then why not use a bore that only has 2 thousandths tall lands...?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2016 10:17:24 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it seems to me that regardless of barrel diameter the bullet/s are only going to obturate so much with any given powder charge, weather it be a .458 barrel or .452?? I'm thinking that the closer you approach to filling the bore completely ,the more efficient a load will be....less blowby.. Since we are only engaging 1 to 2 thousandths of rifling,then why not use a bore that only has 2 thousandths tall lands...?
Good point! And I know this has been hashed over relentlessly, but doesn't this also give more credence to the full forming option....getting the bullet into the rifling's right out of the gate??? |
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Post by Richard on Jul 21, 2016 11:12:38 GMT -5
The full forming thing is good but it can be a PIA! Probably if you stuck to one bullet and got your sizing procedure down pat, you would be ok? The problem I think, comes from using different bullets which, size a little differently? Then you have to contend with the fouling problem on both the lands AND the groves? I know the first couple of inches down the muzzle tighten up after a couple of fouling shots. This has got to get worse with FF bullets as the groves start to load up. I am just thinking out loud and giving my opinion here: IF, there was some FORMAL competition for me, I believe FFing could have some accuracy advantages. I would also think that keeping the bore clean would also be a part of the loading procedure! On the other hand, shooting smooth sized bullet have shown me that 1/2 MOA accuracy out to MY longest shooting distance of 300 yards? And I believe once I get to Kentucky that it will prove out to 400 also. So, that being said, how many people that shoot these muzzle loaders have the need to shoot/hunt further than that? Or, can hold accurately on a target that far away from a field condition rest........in cold weather, with unknow wind conditions and what have you? I am sure there are a few (very few) that have a set up where these long shots are available ?(if you saw Hank's video you get my point). Shooting these long distances takes A LOT of range/trigger time to perfect. So, back to my point........we are kicking butt with these rifles and simply smooth sizing? |
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Post by bestill458 on Jul 21, 2016 15:24:37 GMT -5
Smooth forming has proved to be all i need in a muzzleloader. But just tinkering and full forming .458 bullets in a .450/.458 barrel id very finicky. But if i take and smooth size them to .456 and then fullform they are much more user friendly. Obviously you eliminate the .458 groove surface contact when loading .
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Post by Richard on Jul 21, 2016 16:37:02 GMT -5
Definitely a better way to go Jeff. But since smooth sizing has proven very accurate, I will stick with it until something better comes along!  |
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Post by jims on Jul 21, 2016 18:00:24 GMT -5
A little late to post but I have recovered smooth formed bullets at times. They definitely had engraving on the same, perhaps no more than when I pushed them down the muzzle but they shot well. Clearly light engraving on the recovered bullets but since they shot well I never attempted to measure them as long as they worked. When they were so tight to start with I could not get them down or had to pound them out I felt I did not want that much engagement.
I likewise as the others have full formed but it certainly, for me, was a more involved process. If one it trying to get the utmost out then it may be worth the extra effort. I am mostly a hunter at modest ranges so the smooth also works for me. Nothing worse than a stuck bullet in the field. Takes something away from the day.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2016 18:15:11 GMT -5
I'm all for smooth forming...it works...I just think we are wasting a lot of energy that could yield higher velocities with a .450 bullet in a .458 tube...
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