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Post by Hank on May 27, 2016 7:58:32 GMT -5
That dirty look you're getting ain't because of the brake.. Lol..
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Post by doug136 on May 27, 2016 8:18:05 GMT -5
Thank you i appreciate everything
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2016 8:28:31 GMT -5
That dirty look you're getting ain't because of the brake.. Lol.. You might be right, I rarely shower before heading to the range....
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2016 8:43:46 GMT -5
what were you shooting out of it..? I hope NOT smokeless... I have a CVA optima elite 45/70 slufoot conversion that shoots 250 SST with smokeless powder around 2600-2700fps and around 42-44k and have had no issues with my muzzleloader. It is now my boy's gun and he shoots the same bullet but uses allot less powder and no issues. Most if not all of these muzzleloaders on this section of Hank's forum are going to be shooting smokeless however you need to realize they were built for it and do not recommend shooting smokeless out of any standard muzzleloader. Please don't take my post as being rude just trying to explain what your seeing in post about muzzleloader in this section.
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ded
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Post by ded on May 27, 2016 9:05:07 GMT -5
I dont see anywhere where doug stated it was a 45-70 barrel, just said cva optima unless i am missing it somewhere.
Also, a witness mark is a must but it is not 100% either. I have seen where several people have left their ramrods in their gun and fired them out. It all comes down to being extremely careful but anything can happen when you add a human to the equation.
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Post by 10gaauto on May 27, 2016 9:32:54 GMT -5
I use a fresh tape wrap on the rods each visit to the range. I have a pack of red, yellow, green and blue vinyl tape from the dollar store. Use 2 range rods and sometimes I have 3 or 4 SML shooting/cooling at one session. A set rotation and layout of bullet/charge/primer at each gun station and keeping the shooting book for each gun updated slows things down and allows lots of checking before putting a round down range to the paper. And if you want to know why I go through this process just ask sometime. As Richard said Feces occur.
Yes, cannibalizing the lug to a new barrel be a good save on a bad "happenin".
Safety 1st, then accuracy. 10
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2016 10:44:58 GMT -5
My velocity was 1800 fps , my pressure with correct load was 22,00 to 24,00p psi . I have done a lot of research on pressures . It was a safe load until double loading powder thats all im gonna say . I shouldnt of done what i was doing and I'm not advocating anything. Your lucky to be alive IMHO....BP guns are BP guns period....
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Post by hillbill on May 27, 2016 16:13:04 GMT -5
Ok To clarify some things.
If the Optima is a straight muzzleloader then we in no way advocate using smokeless of any charge weight no matter what the pressure is. Muzzleloader barrels are for BP or subs only so anything that is posted in the SML section MUST be shot from a gun designed for smokeless, the last thing we need is for someone new to come to Hank's and see someone using smokeless power in a BP gun thinking they can do the same.
NOW I'm not busting doug's chops for doing so because he is relatively new BUT now that he knows everyone that reads this also knows. smokeless only from smokeless guns in the SML section henceforth.
IF I read this wrong and it's a 45-70 conversion forgive me, once again I'm not picking on doug at all, just clarifying things..
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WGK
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Post by WGK on May 27, 2016 16:56:10 GMT -5
I am going to ask a question here. Do we know for a fact that the Apex stainless 45/70 barrel is a higher grade of stainless then the Apex muzzle loader barrel.
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Post by doug136 on May 27, 2016 18:15:28 GMT -5
Got it wont happen again
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Post by doug136 on May 27, 2016 18:17:46 GMT -5
Thanks Hillbill took no offence and understand
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Post by hillbill on May 27, 2016 18:24:58 GMT -5
I have no way to confirm one way or the other, I have heard the rifle barrels on the CVAs are a different grade of steel than the smoker barrels. I have it from some sources that TC uses the same grade of steel for both but I honestly have no facts to support either.
for sure the CVA plug is not designed for high pressures. for years I have talked to guys that shoot reduced loads of smokeless from their Encore and CVA guns but we simply can't go there, life and limb are not worth risking..
I hope you guys along with doug don't think I'm trying to snuff out his post, I think we can all learn from it. Many guys have double loaded guns and I personally have done so at last years fall shoot but a witness mark and the fact that when I seated the bullet I knew it was not right, it never got fired. hence I came up with the bullet puller specifically for double loads. we learn from mistakes and we learn when someone else makes them as well.
I'm glad doug was man enough to share what he did with the rest of the board, it's easy just to go on and not say anything, I could have done the same at the shoot last year, just put my gun up and no one would have been the wiser BUT I knew I had to man up and admit my mistake. we are all human, we just happen to be playing a game that when mistakes are made the results can be life altering or life ending.
Glad you or bystanders didnt get hurt doug, we have all learned a lesson...
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Post by doug136 on May 27, 2016 19:31:33 GMT -5
Thanks again Hillbill your a stand up guy !
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Post by hillbill on May 27, 2016 19:58:54 GMT -5
while we are talking safety Is it possible to bulge a barrel without a double load? I THINK YES! I will explain.
about three or four years ago I built a light weight gun, by light I mean 8 lbs with a tac brake and everything but scope. the barrel was a modified sendero profile 1.200 with a 3.5" shank forward of the lug so it was was no pencil barrel at all but it was fluted.
here is how I bulged the barrel
the barrel was bad dirty from the last deer season and my bullets fit very tightly (300 MH)without the crusty crud in the barrel,it was almost impossible to load but I did get it down the barrel and THOUGHT it was seated. I had with me a generic range rod as my RR for this gun was still in my pack so did I have a witness mark? NO...MISTAKE #2 #1 was taking a gun out that was terribly dirty to start with.
for any new guys; smokeless powder residue will turn from snotty to crust in several hours so an unloaded gun that has been fired will be noticeably harder to load after the residue hardens, some powders are worse than others.
when I fired the gun it kicked the living crap out of me and I thought, what the heck? upon loading the second time I noticed the fateful loose spot at the bottom? I went ahead and fired the second shot but when it hit the loose spot on the third once again I knew the barrel was toast and loaded up and went home. I assumed I had double loaded even though I was sure of only loading one charge.I even told everyone on the board that's what happened. several days later when I removed the barrel I noticed the bulge (slightly visible) was back on the shank and I started to investigate, I got my loads out and sure enough only two were fired, the first that loaded so hard and the last one when I noticed it loaded funny. the third I had to push out of the barrel, it confirmed that is was not a double load. also the fact that the bulge was so close to the plug??
So what happened??
I thought for a long time that smokeless powder could not ignite unless it was seated VERY firmly on the powder charge, we now know different. Jeff proved that by firing bullets that basically drop down the barrel. what is different? I now know that it's all about flame path, Jeff's system ignites so well because the flame path is so short.
MY THEORY
since I was shooting a 209 gun my assumptions were partially correct, with the long flame path of the 209 plugs we use one must build pressure before the charge will ignite, my bullet was so tight in the barrel that it had no choice but build pressure but the problem was it had an air gap between the powder and bullet, how much of a gap? I have no way of knowing for sure but after careful measuring I estimate .5 - 1"? call me a crazy hick if you want but I am 100% convinced that is what happened.
the war has raged in the last three years over the LMRP vs the 209. here is my thinking and I use both and have for long enough to think I know what I'm talking about?
which primer is hotter? I have no idea but I do know the 209 will make a bigger fire storm at night, I have tried it. so why the difference?
AGAIN ONLY MY THEORY
The LMRP is designed for high pressure with the powder sitting on it, it is fairly thick and tough. The 209 is designed for really fast low volumes of powder but it can't stand the direct pressure of the loads we shoot, hence the long flame path and large path volume that protects the primer. shorten the 209 flame path and what happens? blown or bulged primers
Does this make the 209 a bad system? not in my opinion, it just works differently. once one understands the parameters of both systems you begin to understand the short comings and strengths of both. can both be accurate? certainly! Is one more accurate than the other? some might argue the point but I would doubt it.
Jeff's system is great, it's plug and play and seals 100%, it works and works well, no one can dispute it, anyone that does has never fired it, it's that simple.
209 plugs?
Yes they can be made to seal 100% and without blown primers and blow by BUT it is a little harder to do. they can be 100% reliable even in cold temps. it's obvious they are easy to come by and use and with the right parts the avj joe can build one.
there are advantages to each system, I know, I shoot both and always will. the debate will rage on and will never end but keep in mind without a witness mark one can bulge a barrel with smokeless powder: I DID!
Is that what happened to doug? its possible, if the bulge is close to where the bullet normally sits ? with a very crusty bore I would think very likely.
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Post by doug136 on May 27, 2016 20:13:47 GMT -5
I have had barrels with loose spots in them right from the start . Whats up with that ? Is the tooling just that poor ?
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Post by doug136 on May 27, 2016 20:16:59 GMT -5
Just curious , why is the flame channel longer on a 209 system vrs LRP
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Post by Richard on May 27, 2016 20:43:28 GMT -5
To take up some of the pressure before the bullet starts moving down the bore. With Hank's system, you hae the CF locking lugs to absorb the pressure. With the 209 you need the flame channel and the vent liner (bushing) to hold back the pressure since you only have the bolt handle engagement as a deterrent.
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Post by doug136 on May 27, 2016 20:51:33 GMT -5
Oh that makes huge sense . Thats why the locking lug are important. I thought the breech plugs took everything .Always learning !
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Post by hillbill on May 27, 2016 20:57:08 GMT -5
The plug takes the brunt of the pressure but that small hole lets a good bit through for an instant.....
locking lugs do a couple of things, it serves as a "back stop" so to speak and it can put forward pressure on the case/module/primer, which ever system one uses.
the problem with ML actions as in the Savage and 700 ML is they have a cammed slot with the end of a .100 or so bolt doing the locking. If one puts much pressure at all on the primer both the slot and the end of the screw will wear to a degree, it's a fine line but if care is taken it works well.
the plug in both is more than up to the task of holding the pressure.
I'm not trying to promote one system or action type over the other just giving my honest opinion on both..
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Post by doug136 on May 27, 2016 21:13:02 GMT -5
Im gonna have both . Savage ML2 with Brux and Remington Hankins gun . I guess i can compare . Im sure they will both shoot better than what im capable of .
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