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Post by 865mlkill on May 13, 2016 15:46:20 GMT -5
Anyone have any idea's on how to improve the accuracy of a Savage ML 2 or any idea's on a new rebuild?
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Post by 12ptdroptine on May 13, 2016 17:15:06 GMT -5
First you need to have a finished platform that you wish to achieve. How many yarsd do you want to be able to shoot? What minute of accuracy do you want? What loads do you expect to shoot? And then...how much $ do you want to invest. Personally I have spent the price of a custom .45 barrel on powders sabota and bullets for the MLII .50 cal trying to get it to shoot. And NEVER got either one to consistantly shoot even close to MOA. Now I hope not to offend ANYONE but depending on the finished product. You can probably sell your MLII for close enough to finance a new build. Or you can buy a custom barrel...ignition system...and stock combination that will kill anything in the world. And shoot 1/2 moa. WITHOUT chasing a load all over the country . I know it sounds like a lot. But MANY of us here have ended up on this same path after starting where you are right now. You can build a very good gun right off of your action. With a barrel and a new plug and pillared and bedded stock.if you would lik you can pm me your # and I would be glad to call and offer my personal experiences
Good luck
Drop
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Post by elkman1310 on May 13, 2016 20:14:53 GMT -5
That good advice. The 50 Cal Savage can be made to shoot really well If your lucky enough to get one with a good barrel. The Savage I bought a few years ago didn't shoot very well when I first bought it.
If your gun has a plastic stock take it off and at least buy a good laminate and have it pillar bedded correctly. Then go buy some JB compound which is a very mild lapping compound and attack the inside of the barrel with a lot of elbow grease and JB lapping compound you can smooth out some of the tooling marks that are in the stock barrel. The smoother you can get the barrel the better it will shot sabots.
I ended up getting my 50Cal to shoot the Barnes Original and orange sabots under 1" at 100yards. Very good for a sabot gun. Know it all depends how far you plan on shooting. 300 yards or less the 50Cal will get the job done. This your cheapest way out if you want more performance then you need to join the 45 Caliber club and shoot sized bullets without that sabot. You can build what ever you want or want ever your wallet will stand. But I know you can convert your 50 Cal to a high performance 45 Cal for less than a $1,000.00 That would be a good barrel, muzzle brake S/S breech plug with a T/Bushing a funnel a ramrod and a sizing die. The stock and any stock work would be extra. I have used several Boyd's Pro Varmint stocks on some of the M/L'S I believe they offer that stock for the Savage action. Also their Heritage stock works well or you can go with a thumbhole. You do a less stock choices with a Savage put there are some nice ones that work very well. Hope this helps
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Post by 865mlkill on May 13, 2016 21:07:29 GMT -5
This is what I have now. I have a pac-nor barrel 1:22 twist, boyd's laminated stock, third action screw, new recoil lug, pillar bedded, floated barrel, DNZ 20 moa tactical rings/base, vortex viper lr. This platform will shoot 1" groups all day long with the smallest group I've shot being just under a 1/2". I'm wanting a hole puncher, being more consistant every time I shoot. I can't help to think I need a faster twist barrel and get away from the 209's for better performance.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on May 13, 2016 21:41:31 GMT -5
This is what I have now. I have a pac-nor barrel 1:22 twist, boyd's laminated stock, third action screw, new recoil lug, pillar bedded, floated barrel, DNZ 20 moa tactical rings/base, vortex viper lr. This platform will shoot 1" groups all day long with the smallest group I've shot being just under a 1/2". I'm wanting a hole puncher, being more consistant every time I shoot. I can't help to think I need a faster twist barrel and get away from the 209's for better performance. Then I would.look to a Brux or Krieger barrel. In a heavy taper and shoot sabotless.And look into A HIS ignitikn I am not to sure that going to a faster twist will help. I like 1 in 20 myself Drop |
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Post by 865mlkill on May 14, 2016 7:15:30 GMT -5
This is a 45 sabotless model. I like shooting 300 gr bullets with 65 gr imr 4198. I have tried different powder charges but have stuck with the 300 gr bullet line up. I may try something else today and see what happens.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on May 14, 2016 9:31:02 GMT -5
I didn't see what plug you are using. I had some problems whenI tried to push 275 gn bullets with 5gn red dot under 65gn of H5198. Just couldn't get it to seal properly in my gun Same results when I got up around 70 gn of H4198 straight load. Gas cutting was a problem. I feel the Savage styl plug just won't consistently hold these kinds of pressure's. Where as you stated you wanted to go to a LRMP. I think Jeff's system is what you need to look at. Personally I don't have one YET . I intend to have one in the future. I have NEVER heard of a problem with one of them. And the common load for a Hankins Rifle is 77gn IMR 4198 and a 275 gn bullet. And I have witnessed some of these guns shooting 1/2 moa at 300 yds. Seen one shoot 1/4 moa @300 yds once. I know I babble..... Lol but check with any Hankins Riflemowner here and ask about their results. Several of us (with the right barrel profile) are pushing that 300gn bullet with 73-75 gns of either H or IMR 4198. With GREAT results.
good Luck
drop
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Post by GMB54-120 on May 14, 2016 11:32:15 GMT -5
Which 300gr bullet? Some are easier to get consistent results than others. 1-22 twist is plenty fast for a 300gr at that kind of speed.
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Post by 865mlkill on May 14, 2016 11:41:05 GMT -5
Drop, I've emailed Jeff on (HIS) system to see if he could do the conversion for me and he said that it would not work on the ml 2 bolt. I would have to have locking lugs on my bolt for the system to work with his module system. Still at a stand still.
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Post by 865mlkill on May 14, 2016 11:46:39 GMT -5
On the bullets. I was previously using the Parker MH 300's until I found Kyle's line of bullet. Now I shoot his 300's. I like the thinner jacket (much easier to load).
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Post by 12ptdroptine on May 14, 2016 12:59:21 GMT -5
608
Then My next advice would be to sell it and start over. Not to sound harsh. But if you wish to advance to a LRMP that would be what I would do
Drop
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2016 13:56:13 GMT -5
608 Then My next advice would be to sell it and start over. Not to sound harsh. But if you wish to advance to a LRMP that would be what I would do Drop +1....no offense.  |
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Post by elkman1310 on May 14, 2016 17:38:30 GMT -5
It sounds like you have a good gun right now 1/2" groups from any custom muzzleloader is nothing to sneeze at. There is no problem getting great consistent accuracy from a 209 ignition as long as the breech plug is designed properly. I know the ones I make work darn good.
I test all the muzzleloaders I build for my customers. I test these guns off of a good solid rifle rest not a lead sled. And a good rear bag setup. I am totally amazed at the junk people bring to the range to shoot from. Some of these guys just spent nearly $5,000.00 on a complete gun and high end scope and they show up with a $39.00 Hoppe's front rest with a half filled sand bag that isn't even tied on. and a rear bag that is junk. Hey if you want to shot bug hole groups more consistently work on your bench rest equipment.
I have built guns with 1-18 1-20 and 1-22 and have shot all at 600 yards and there is no accuracy difference between them with a 300gr bullet. You will not shoot smaller groups with a LRMP system that is a myth. As long as the gun is built with quality stuff and built by a experienced machinist. I am a firm believe in the 209 ignition system.
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Post by Richard on May 14, 2016 20:27:03 GMT -5
Hey Carl.............watch the way you insult my lead sled!!!! |
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Post by hillbill on May 14, 2016 21:06:42 GMT -5
either ignition works well, some trade off's either way, all depends on what one has for a donor gun but without getting pretty serious it's going to be hard to improve on .5 moa.
the Savage can be a very good rig given the right goodies are added, keep in mind they are bringing good money these days IF you decide to go another direction. I have seen several guys sell theirs and use the funds to go a long way toward a custom build if you so desire.
let us know what you are looking for as far as weight/ length/ dollars to spend and we can give you a good idea on what direction to send you in. the Savage tweaked on can be very good, let us know how much has been done if you want to try to take it to another level..
I see a pretty extensive list but specifics will help..
plug type used? bushing used?
type of rest being shot from?
trigger?
you get the idea
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Post by elkman1310 on May 15, 2016 8:26:29 GMT -5
Sorry Richard I forgot how old you are! I know you like using those. I like shooting from a conventional type rest. The rests people show up with are down right laughable. Like I say I shoot these guns in first and then give the customer a target. Then they go to the range with me. I don't want to here any crying that the gun won't shot. I want to see what there using to shot off of. I really gave my one customer hell because he showed up with the cheapest piece of junk plastic rest from Gander MNT and a rear bag with about 2 ounces of sand in it. It looked like a dog had chewed on it for a day.
Hey I put a lot of TLC into building these guns and I know they will shot really small groups. Its just crazy to think your going to shoot small off a junk setup. I left him shot some groups from his rest and then from mine and there was a big difference. And I am just using a heavy duty cast iron front rest not one of my custom rests I build for 1000 yard comp. You need to be rock steady when your trying to shoot small groups with a heavy recoiling rifle. Also the bench you shoot from has to be rock steady. A lot of rifle ranges don't have quality benches either. The benches at my local range our built out of wood they are not very good compared to the concrete benches at our 1000 yard range. Those will spoil you real fast.
I would say if you got a M/L that is cranking out 1/2 inch groups try to improve your other equipment first. Since I don't know what your using that is only a suggestion. Also put a good trigger in your Savage. Then play around with the sizing of your bullet. the smallest of changes in the diameter you size to can have a big impact on the group size. I have found a very easy one hand loading works the best. It should load easy and smoothly from the muzzle all the way down to the powder charge. Also final seating pressure. Also play around with different wads. Some guns shot better with no wad . Same goes for powder charges. I use IMR 4198 for my tests and hunting loads. 70 to 73 grs with a 300gr bullet works best some guns really like 70 others like 73 better. My Douglas barrel loves 71.5 grs.
You can do a lot of testing with the gun you have. After all that testing. You might want to build a new gun. But there is no guarantee that it will shoot any smaller than what you have know. Most center fire rifle will not shot 1/2 groups so I think you have a pretty good rig right now. Also the Savage will always be worth more money than a converted Remington 700 M/L action. I build guns on both. I like the Savage because the bolt is already setup for the 209 primer I don't like the double cock on the Savage bolt. I like the Remington more because of stock choices and triggers and I like the longer barrel shank on the Remington action. Also it's easier to get the action bedded properly also the Rem action is a little lighter in weight.
So you have a lot of choices out there.
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Post by deadeye on May 15, 2016 10:54:13 GMT -5
I just happen to have a couple of 209 sav2 closet queens that seem to get no use.
.40 
.45 
not everyday groups but with some tweaking bugholer's |
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Post by jims on May 15, 2016 20:21:04 GMT -5
That .40 should see the light of day. Excellent shooting.
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Post by 10gaauto on May 15, 2016 20:49:31 GMT -5
You only have 1 SML? You are not an addict, yet! But it is coming. Besides what is it shooting at 200, 300, 400 and more? I have seen guns shoot the same size group at 200 and 300 as they do at 100, under 1". Are you using a chronograph and what kind of speed and standard deviation are you getting? And what kind of range is it and how good do you dope wind etc... Some guns change a bit with barometric pressure and weather: East or North or South wind: relative humidity, etc... What does your log book tell you about daily changes? Lots to check up on and see what is happening. JMHO. 10
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Post by 865mlkill on May 16, 2016 17:54:29 GMT -5
10 ga, I have 2 SML's and I said earlier that this was my favorite sport and yes I am a addict when it comes to long range ML'n. I have taken deer out to 608 (username) yards with my ml and take it seriously, 2, 3, and even 400 yards isn't far enough now. I strive to take it to the limits and i have'nt reached it yet, but when I get there I stop! My shooting out to a 1000 yards most always is north to south because of coriolis, barometric pres is around 28-31 when I shot at about 24 to 2800 ft. And humidity changes with every cloud that passes by. And as far as wind goes, my kestrel let's me know what it's doing before I break the shot. And my shots all come from a bipod for hunting situations, there are no benches where I hunt. So if you don't think I'm an addict your wrong.
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