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Post by thelefthand on Jan 18, 2024 10:18:16 GMT -5
If your on the fence about getting a Scout conversation then I would be asking myself is the Scout more accurate then your MLII or is your MLll more accurate than the Scout. I personally believe that the Scout is way more accurate than my MLll. I was a happy camper when the tomato plant grew above the MLll tomato steak. I reread your post and It sounds like your being very picking on your shots but are you being realist on damage? You’re wanting the perfect gun and bullet combo and trying to hit a very tiny window on a deer that has to be in the perfect position. I think you’re being very critical on losing ounces of meat. Welcome to the board. I would tend to agree that all of the 45s are more accurate than the Savage ML with it's stock barrel. I own some tack drivers, and my Savage ML isn't one of them. That said, it shoots about 1.5 MOA which is "acceptable" for me out to about 250 yds, especially when I take into account the trajectory that I can expect. Regardless of whether I'm using my Savage, or shooting a 45, EVERYTHING starts dropping like a brick after 250 yds. I like the idea of having a more accurate rifle, but the additional accuracy isn't really usable for me. There are spots where I can shoot at a deer out to 300 yds, but in all but 1 of those conditions, I'm shooting all the way across a field, basically as far as I can see, and I can just as easily close the distance down to 250 yds, or even 200 yds. This is why I'm interested in the 40 cal projectiles. 300 yds would be their absolute max range, but I don't need to shoot that far anyway. The 40 gives me a flatter trajectory out to 250 yds allowing me to hold dead on out to 200 yds without feeling like I'm lobbing an arrow out there. 200 yds and beyond, bring my aim up to the middle of the chest and send it. At least it works that way in my mind  I'm not concerned about loosing a few ounces of meat. With my old 45 cal Kentucky rifle shooting ball and patch, you could eat right up to the hole. Archery kills are similar. But high power rifles, and even 44 mag carbines and single shot pistols are going to damage some meat. I've settled on the 6.5 Grendel and 300 BO to minimize the loss, but I still throw away one or two packages worth of hamburger meat with them. I'm just tired of loosing most, or all of a front shoulder. Normally, I skin and quarter my deer and then put the quarters in game bags and put those in a chest freezer that I've converted into a cooler. While i'm skinning it out, I'm normally cutting out clots and damaged meat from around the wounds. There's usually not much left of the off side shoulder when I'm done. Maybe I should be taking that shoulder in the house to clean it up, or just bone the front shoulders out real quick so I can be a little more picking about what gets thrown out. That would also give me the opportunity to separate some of it and soak it in some salt water over night to pull a lot of the blood out and then re-inspect it. |
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Post by james72 on Jan 18, 2024 10:33:15 GMT -5
I bought a Savage MLII a year before I bought my CVA Scout. I couldn't get the Savage to shoot to my satisfaction, so I sold it. The CVA Scout is way more accurate than the Savage. I did try sabots and 40 cal 250g STMZ Fury bullets initially with my Scout, but they didn't shoot as well as the 45 cal smooth sized bullets. I'm not sure you will find what you're looking for - fast, light, 40 caliber copper solids that shoot accurately out of a 45 caliber gun. It took me a couple of months of experimenting to find 'my load' with the CVA Scout but I now have a gun that shoots 0.50 - 0.75 moa out to 200 yards and it doesn't cause excessive damage in my opinion. I killed 4 deer with it this year. One was broadside, the other 3 were quartered so that the bullet passed through one shoulder. The broadside shot was a 1" entrance and golf ball sized exit (not softball sized like you mentioned with the SST). The quartered shots were a little more damage (between golf ball and baseball sized holes in the shoulder), but not enough damage that the whole shoulder had to be tossed. I experimented with several bullet and powder combos in pursuit of an accurate load that I thought would give me good terminal performance on whitetail without excessive damage. My load is listed below. I am very impressed with Pittman bullets. Many shooters on here choose the regular Accumax bullets, but I chose the Accumax Hard Core series because I wanted a bullet with a harder lead core for high velocity impacts. Kyle makes a 253 gr Accumax HC in 45 caliber and a 228gr Accumax HC in 40 caliber if you want to try these. They will be way more accurate than the Barnes bullets in my opinion. Good luck. 54gr 4227, Accumax 278HC @ 2575 fps |
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Post by thelefthand on Jan 18, 2024 16:22:57 GMT -5
I remember having problems getting 250gr projectiles to shoot well in my Savage. I'd have to go look up the duplex load that I was using, but I know I was using the MMP short sabots with a sub-base when it was all said and done. When I switched to 300gr bullets, I immediately started with HPH12 sabots, and everything shot okay. I did all of my 300gr load development at 300 yds. Some loads were shooting closer to 2moa but pretty much everything shot worse than 1 moa, but better than 2 moa. I don't consider that impressive by any means, but since I'm shooting a max of 300 yds, and probably more like a max of 225-250 yds, its still "minute of fur". The idea of having a SML that shoots in the 1/2 moa range is CERTAINLY appealing to me, but my Savage's accuracy has never cost me a deer with the exception of the one year where the bedding cracked and broke around the recoil lug in that flimsy POS they call a stock. I immediately ordered some kind of heavy, laminated, thumbhole stock from Richards that received a bedding job and some rattle can camo, and it has been fine ever since. That's why better accuracy is 3rd on my list of priorities rather than 1st or 2nd. If it were one of my PD rifles, or if it was a rifle that I was competing with, I would have spent the money MANY years ago. Alas, its not, so I haven't, and I'm still trying to talk myself into spending the money over a decade later and struggling to justify it.
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Post by smokelessk on Jan 19, 2024 7:40:24 GMT -5
Shot placement, if I worry about ruining a shoulder I would have to pass on half the deer I shoot. I don't think buckeye is arrogant just realistic.I know him and he is a good shooter and calculating on his shots. I don't know buckeye, and I'm new here, so I'll give the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I just read his post wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. On that note, my apologies for the blunt response. "Shot placement, if I worry about ruining a shoulder I would have to pass on half the deer I shoot" - That's basically where I've been with my ML for the past 15 years, and it's one of the reasons I now use a Grendel or 300 BO during our firearms season. My savage has been killing deer for 3 decades. I'm trying to convince myself to do a Scout conversion. If I'm going to spend a grand on something, there needs to be a reason why, and "because I want to" isn't a good enough reason. After this discussion, I'm left asking myself what a CVA Scout conversion (or any other 45 cal ML for that matter) can do for me that I can't get from my existing Savage ML10-II? Realistically, if 1.5 to 2 MOA is acceptable, keep using your Savage. The CVA would be an improvement of accuracy, in most cases, over the Savage. Several posts you've written about a flat shooting load. Flat requires speed, speed equals meat damage. If one wants to run "high end" loads in the scout to flatten the trajectory the damage is not going to be much, if any different, than the Savage loads. Some people shooting the CVA are discarding more meat than you are with the Savage. All the deer I've bagged with my Savage, I have never seen it do the same damage as either of my 45 caliber SML's. It doesn't even compare. Really, if accuracy is not a priority, I feel you're chasing a unicorn. Personally I'm THRILLED to be rid of both my Savage muzzleloaders. The frustration and so-so accuracy I do not miss. 1.5-2 MOA means I'm shooting 4.5-6" groups at 300 yards. Sure, it'll kill a deer. But, misjudge the wind by just a little or the distance changes without the time to adjust, now there's bigger problems. I'll take sub 1" groups at 300 yards any day of the week over 5" groups. All that said, save your money and keep using the Savage unless you desire the extra accuracy. Keep in mind long term. Service and parts for the Savage are going by the wayside. If it should ever need repairs or new parts. Many smiths won't have anything to do with working on one. Savage has been a complete dead end for any support for that rifle for quite a few years now. The guns still pop up on Gunbroker here and there. I've seen the stainless ones fetch stupid prices, well more than a converted CVA costs. It's your $$ and your hunt, I just know I wouldn't make the room in my personal safe to put a Savage back in there. |
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Post by thelefthand on Jan 19, 2024 12:58:36 GMT -5
I think that's very sound advice. To clarify, my hunting loads consistently group between 1 moa and 1.5 moa. 1.5 moa is about the max limit of what I'm willing to hunt with, even if I'm only shooting 100 yds. I still feel that 1.5 moa is iffy at 250 yds, but I'd likely take the shot. Past that, I'd try to get closer. I agree that there's no way I'd get a savage if I were starting today, even if I could do it for the same price as a scout conversion. I gave less than $400 for my Savage when I ordered it new, and while I still like and appreciate it, I wouldn't even give the original price for a new one today. I'd end up being into it for more money than doing the conversion, and the scout would outperform it in every measurable way. If I were starting over AND I wanted something built on a bolt action, I'd buy a used Remington 700 short action, a conversion barrel, and probably an MTD Oryx chassis to drop it in. If I wasn't tied to a bolt action, it would either be a Scout, or an Encore conversion barrel since I already have a frame. I appreciate everyone's contribution to this thread. While it hasn't really helped me identify an max charges for Re7 it HAS given a much better understanding of what I can expect from a Scout conversion relative to the Savage that I already own. If I continue down the path of getting a Scout, I think that I'll now have much better expectations. That doesn't mean that I won't try to make it a unicorn. It just means that I'll be content if all I wind up with is a kickazz mustang  |
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Post by smokelessk on Jan 19, 2024 15:05:19 GMT -5
If your Savage is a stainless model it would likely fetch triple what you paid for it on Gunbroker. More than what the CVA would cost. The death of my first savage was when the breech plug began to leak. Not around the primer, but the forward face of the plug where it seals the bore. When this occurs you're looking at a new plug and re machine the sealing surface in the barrel because both will be gas cut. Or replacing the barrel. None of which is cheap. At that point the resale value is zero, at least assuming one has the integrity to not knowingly sell a damaged rifle. My second savage the plug never leaked, probably because I sold it new in the box.
Then again, if you shoot very little, your plug might never leak in your lifetime. I would suggest using book loads though, as the forward sealing Savage plug is really not the strongest option to hot rod with. And when it decides to leak... You get the idea.
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Post by thelefthand on Jan 22, 2024 13:27:30 GMT -5
My second savage the plug never leaked, probably because I sold it new in the box. I can see where that could have some bearing on the issue... My savage is stainless (under all the paint), but I wouldn't sell it for 3x what I have in it. Heck, I won't sell it at all. Too many memories, and I'm really not in the habit of selling guns anyway. I think I ran some book loads through it when I first got it, but can't really remember. I'm sure that by its 2nd season, I was running duplex loads, and I have no interest in going back |
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