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Post by oldmarine on Dec 10, 2023 7:23:47 GMT -5
I have my old CVA Optima shooting dimes at 50 yds, so accuracy is not an issue up to 150 yds or so. My issue is blood trails. Through the years, I've tried a half dozen bullet/sabot/powder combinations before concluding that I cannot possibly improve upon what I now use. I'm shooting Harvester Gold 260 bullets propelled by 100 grains of Blackhorn 209 powder. I have determined that using the "crushed rib" sabots and ramming them down with a "spin-jag" on my ram-rod provides consistent shot placement.
However, the last two deer I have shot left little and no blood trail. I hit the last deer from 120 yds just under and behind the front shoulder where I had aimed. Found the deer 80 yds away in the snow after absolutely zero drops of blood. A heart shot, and not lungs....I know or there would have been a lot coming out the mouth. Still, a head scratcher for me.
Q. Am I alone with this "no or little blood trail", or do other members have the same experience with their muzzleloaders?
Also, if anyone has found a "better bullet", please let me know.
Thanks,
Greg
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Post by dennis on Dec 10, 2023 8:18:32 GMT -5
I have found that heart shot deer do not leave a good blood trail as the heart isn't pumping. jme
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Post by Hank on Dec 10, 2023 10:04:33 GMT -5
Not every deer you shoot will be the same as the last deer you shot. Some with DRT and some will run forever, It's usually not the bullets fault, it shot palcement. A 1/2 one way or the other could make the difference between a complete pass through and a blood trial Ray Charles could find to a blowup just under the skin and a deer running a 100 yards or more.
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Post by yoderjac on Dec 10, 2023 14:31:03 GMT -5
I have my old CVA Optima shooting dimes at 50 yds, so accuracy is not an issue up to 150 yds or so. My issue is blood trails. Through the years, I've tried a half dozen bullet/sabot/powder combinations before concluding that I cannot possibly improve upon what I now use. I'm shooting Harvester Gold 260 bullets propelled by 100 grains of Blackhorn 209 powder. I have determined that using the "crushed rib" sabots and ramming them down with a "spin-jag" on my ram-rod provides consistent shot placement. However, the last two deer I have shot left little and no blood trail. I hit the last deer from 120 yds just under and behind the front shoulder where I had aimed. Found the deer 80 yds away in the snow after absolutely zero drops of blood. A heart shot, and not lungs....I know or there would have been a lot coming out the mouth. Still, a head scratcher for me. Q. Am I alone with this "no or little blood trail", or do other members have the same experience with their muzzleloaders? Also, if anyone has found a "better bullet", please let me know. Thanks, Greg This seems pretty typical to me. An arrow kills primarily though cutting and blood loss. A firearm kills primarily though hydrostatic shock that induces an entire system shutdown. In both cases deer often run and can cover quite a distance even with a well placed killing shot. With an arrow, a low exit wound is key to a good blood trail. We try to design arrows and broadheads to create a good exit wound for this purpose. Bullets are generally designed to maximize the energy transfer to the animal to maximize the hydrostatic shock. That means they are generally designed not to produce an exit wound, because any energy that is not transferred to the deer when it leaves is not contributing to hydrostatic shock. The amount of energy available to be transferred to the deer is dependent on mass x Velocity squared. While buckhorn 209 is probably providing more energy than pyrodex or equivalent, it is generally not as much as a high powered rifle or SML. I'm shooting a 275 grain Pittman bullet at around 2500 fps. When I take a shoulder shot and hit the scapula, it is bang-flop every time. When I take a heart/lung chest cavity shot. Deer always run but so far, no more than about 80 yards. There is never a blood trail to speak of. Of course, a shoulder shot destroys a lot of meat. Those Pittman 275s at that speed are devastating. So, for me it is a trade off. If I'm hunting in an area where I'll lose track of the deer quickly when it runs, I'll opt for bang-flop. If the deer is in the open, I'll take the heart/lung shot because it will be easy to find without a blood trail. The primary reason I went to an SML was for deer recovery. When I was using a pyrodex equivalent, not only would I have no blood trail and the deer would run farther due to less available kinetic energy, on a still day, smoke would hover. When it finally cleared, there was no deer and no idea of what direction it ran. Those recoveries were much more difficult.
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Post by smokelessk on Dec 10, 2023 19:31:54 GMT -5
Not every deer you shoot will be the same as the last deer you shot. Some with DRT and some will run forever, It's usually not the bullets fault, it shot palcement. A 1/2 one way or the other could make the difference between a complete pass through and a blood trial Ray Charles could find to a blowup just under the skin and a deer running a 100 yards or more. Well.... If you shoot them in the head with a Pittman grenade the results are pretty consistent. Lol. Not always practicable, but highly effective!
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Post by oldmarine on Dec 11, 2023 8:20:41 GMT -5
Thanks for the responses! I will think about using Pittman bullets. They are incredibly expensive, however. Might be a drawback.
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Post by yoderjac on Dec 11, 2023 12:38:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the responses! I will think about using Pittman bullets. They are incredibly expensive, however. Might be a drawback. The expense is mostly felt at the range. Sighting in initially or dealing with a scope issue or similar thing can be costly. I used other, less expensive, bullets to sight in. Once I was pretty close, I moved to the Pittman to make final adjustments. Each year when I foul the barrel, I use other. less expensive, bullets as well. This means I'm shooting 1 bullet per deer. My state has pretty liberal limits so there is still cost involved. This was especially true for me since I was not a hand loader, and prior to my SML and COVID, I had no supplies. Shortages in loading supplies meant I had to pay gunbroker premium prices for some of my supplies. However, I compare it to archery hunting. I'm a one shot per broadhead guy. So, my cost per shot with a bow is in the same ball park as my cost per shot with my SML, even with the premium bullets.
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Post by smokelessk on Dec 11, 2023 13:13:58 GMT -5
Thanks for the responses! I will think about using Pittman bullets. They are incredibly expensive, however. Might be a drawback. I would say your biggest drawback though is muzzle velocity. 100 grains of Blackhorn is not even close to the velocity we call normal with the guns most of us shoot. Others might have a more educated estimate for your muzzle velocity but I'm guessing 1,800 fps? This is (ballpark) 1,000 fps slower than an average load from a smokeless muzzleloader. That 1,000 fps is an incredible difference in energy. So, 100 yards striking distance on an animal how much velocity is remaining? Not a whole lot of extra energy there to say the least. Enough to get the job done, but for a nice blood trail not so much. The Harvester Gold bullet is a plated bullet, where as we shoot either cup and core or some use solids. Nothing wrong with a plated bullet, they are by far less expensive. For lower velocity loads plated bullets can be great. They bridge the gap (velocity and terminal performance) between cast bullets and cup and core. Switching to the Pittman certainly is not going to be a step backwards in performance. It just may not be quite the bombshell you are desiring. Particularly with the reduced velocity of the rifle you are using. Not meant to be critical, it's just physics, speed kills. In the game of smokeless, meat loss is a real concern for shot placement.
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Post by jims on Dec 11, 2023 22:14:10 GMT -5
My experience with a bullet through the heart leads to an immediate fast run but not far. I personally like a bullet that also exits as I like the heavier blood trail if the animal does move after the shot. Once my rifles are sighted in premium cost bullets are not much of an issue for me as each new season usually takes one shot to verify and then hopefully only one for the game.
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Post by tar12 on Dec 14, 2023 7:19:22 GMT -5
Greg... you should look into the Fury star tipped bullets...they have a smokeless version and non smokeless version and they are bonded and are extremely accurate and devastating on deer! Granted we are shooting smokeless at 2400 fps but we have had complete pass through and massive blood trails from 180 yards to 275 yards...I cant help but think that the non smokeless version of this bullet would work well for you and give you the performance you are looking for as it is designed for the slower velocity you are at. www.furycustombullets.com/product-category/black-powder-muzzle-loader-bullets
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Post by dannoboone on Dec 14, 2023 13:05:02 GMT -5
The primary reason I went to an SML was for deer recovery. When I was using a pyrodex equivalent, not only would I have no blood trail and the deer would run farther due to less available kinetic energy, on a still day, smoke would hover. When it finally cleared, there was no deer and no idea of what direction it ran. Those recoveries were much more difficult. Mega-DITTO! There was really nothing wrong with my Encore 209x50, but several times the same happened to me. At first the 10MLII was disappointing until screwing on a .45 barrel. Then life was good. Later converted a 700ML and life became better. Many more bang-flops with both.
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Post by fatfred on Dec 14, 2023 18:23:18 GMT -5
Would just like to make a few comments on this one as I have killed deer with a bow, 30-06, 35 rem, 444 Marlin, 45-70, .243, 30-30, 7mm mag, 12 gauge, .54 Thunderhawk, Knight .50 cal Disc, Savage MLII.
About the very 1st post. I hope that Oldmarine meant 100 grain equivalent of BH209 and not weighed.
About some of the bleeding theories, and I realize that everyone has there own experiences: Hank has made the most accurate statement of the entire thread....."Not every deer you shoot will be the same as the last deer you shot." That actually sums up everything here. If you think that not having enough velocity with a ML is the fault (smokelessk) I would disagree. That's like saying a 45-70 will leave poor blood trails. What? That round shoots a similar bullet at lower speeds and is considered and bone crunching big game round no matter the projectile used.
As for heart shots, I refer you back to Hank's comments about things being different everything. A deer's heart can still pump if you hit it. Did you graze the heart, did you vaporize the heart? It's always different.
As for head shots: This is very personal to me as I have seen several deer suffering in the woods with nose injuries and lower jaws damaged badly. Not a fan unless you are close, extremely steady and perfectly in tune with your gun. Small target and it can move enough when you squeeze that bullet time of flight allows a less then center hit. I digress.
Refer to hanks comment again. If you hit a deer perfectly as it is turned in such an angle that the hide is stretched, as the deer turns to run the hide can change positions and cover up a hole by several inches. If you hit a deer at an angle, quartering away, where the lungs are hit by hitting behind the diaphram, the diaphram can prevent the blood from reaching the hole for a little bit. Refer to Hank again. Every time is always different.
One thing is relatively the same. A large caliber ML, be it a 100gr BP inline or a samsquatch smokeless hotrod, will give you a great blood trail with most well placed shots. There is a better chance with two holes which will most likely happen with large hunks of metal.
30-30 is low speed, small caliber. Have had epic blood trails. 7mm Mag is high speed and I've had a few weird no blood trails but mostly great ones when they don't drop at the shot. Older ML's and 12 gauges in the boiler room? 90% Stevie Wonder blood trails.
I would not change to a new gun, load or bullet due to a bad blood trail or two. Things happen and will continue to happen. Every single deer kill will always be a little different....like Hank said.
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Post by fatfred on Dec 14, 2023 18:32:59 GMT -5
I will be in the woods this weekend with my Savage for our 1 week season. 250 gr.458 mono flex, 75 gr IMR4198, Harv CR Sabot and FED209A primer. 2,616 fps and shot a 1 1/8" 3 shot 100 yd group last weekend. One of the shots was in the gun since last year. I expect large blood trails but you never know. Will file a report if successful.
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Post by deadeer on Dec 14, 2023 21:41:31 GMT -5
I will be in the woods this weekend with my Savage for our 1 week season. 250 gr.458 mono flex, 75 gr IMR4198, Harv CR Sabot and FED209A primer. 2,616 fps and shot a 1 1/8" 3 shot 100 yd group last weekend. One of the shots was in the gun since last year. I expect large blood trails but you never know. Will file a report if successful. Nice bullet. I bought 700 blems, but in .452 so I could use in 450bm. Basically same flower power as Barnes. I tried to smooth size a few for the 45 mz barrels, but was so hard I gave up. Didnt put much effort into it "yet" tho.
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Post by deadeer on Dec 14, 2023 21:45:13 GMT -5
Would just like to make a few comments on this one as I have killed deer with a bow, 30-06, 35 rem, 444 Marlin, 45-70, .243, 30-30, 7mm mag, 12 gauge, .54 Thunderhawk, Knight .50 cal Disc, Savage MLII. About the very 1st post. I hope that Oldmarine meant 100 grain equivalent of BH209 and not weighed. About some of the bleeding theories, and I realize that everyone has there own experiences: Hank has made the most accurate statement of the entire thread....."Not every deer you shoot will be the same as the last deer you shot." That actually sums up everything here. If you think that not having enough velocity with a ML is the fault (smokelessk) I would disagree. That's like saying a 45-70 will leave poor blood trails. What? That round shoots a similar bullet at lower speeds and is considered and bone crunching big game round no matter the projectile used. As for heart shots, I refer you back to Hank's comments about things being different everything. A deer's heart can still pump if you hit it. Did you graze the heart, did you vaporize the heart? It's always different. As for head shots: This is very personal to me as I have seen several deer suffering in the woods with nose injuries and lower jaws damaged badly. Not a fan unless you are close, extremely steady and perfectly in tune with your gun. Small target and it can move enough when you squeeze that bullet time of flight allows a less then center hit. I digress. Refer to hanks comment again. If you hit a deer perfectly as it is turned in such an angle that the hide is stretched, as the deer turns to run the hide can change positions and cover up a hole by several inches. If you hit a deer at an angle, quartering away, where the lungs are hit by hitting behind the diaphram, the diaphram can prevent the blood from reaching the hole for a little bit. Refer to Hank again. Every time is always different. One thing is relatively the same. A large caliber ML, be it a 100gr BP inline or a samsquatch smokeless hotrod, will give you a great blood trail with most well placed shots. There is a better chance with two holes which will most likely happen with large hunks of metal. 30-30 is low speed, small caliber. Have had epic blood trails. 7mm Mag is high speed and I've had a few weird no blood trails but mostly great ones when they don't drop at the shot. Older ML's and 12 gauges in the boiler room? 90% Stevie Wonder blood trails. I would not change to a new gun, load or bullet due to a bad blood trail or two. Things happen and will continue to happen. Every single deer kill will always be a little different....like Hank said. No doubt, deer never follow the script. In a slower velocity range, I would give the Barnes or Hdy monoflex the best odds for consistent blood trails. I had my best results with them when using smoking mz's and now 450bm.
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Post by gd357 on Dec 15, 2023 23:20:03 GMT -5
Have seen deer shot with a "regular" inline muzzleloader react from "drop on impact" to running 200 yards. If you're shooting a High Velocity SML... Lean towards a 22-250 vs a woodchuck. Won't be the same twice, but results will be dramatic.
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Post by fatfred on Dec 16, 2023 19:12:25 GMT -5
Just a side note: A deer hit with a high velocity ML at 200 yds might be hit with a lower velocity then a lower velocity ML at 50 yds. Think about that.
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miked
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by miked on Dec 16, 2023 20:58:53 GMT -5
If you stick with the Scorpion PT gold bump it up to the 300 grainers and use their smooth short black sabots in your Optima. In fact those short smooth black should work best on any bullet you try in the Optima. They will even work with .458 bullets without that much effort.
My general rule of thumb with 1/28 twist .50 cal barrels is 300 grain for lead and 240 and up for mono. If you really want blood then you should be shooting for two holes. That means the heaviest charge that groups well in your gun and a mono will typically retain its weight and have the best chance of punching through. The most damage I have seen personally with traditional BP loads however has come from the Parker Ballistic Extreme in 300 grain and it exited every time. Big holes in and out with a ton of internal damage on both deer and black bear. A good mono that has a wide cut is the Maker Rex and expands down to very low velocity. It's also not terribly expensive.
Make sure you lightly knurl all your bullets to prevent any possible flyers.
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Post by smokelessk on Dec 16, 2023 22:23:17 GMT -5
Have seen deer shot with a "regular" inline muzzleloader react from "drop on impact" to running 200 yards. If you're shooting a High Velocity SML... Lean towards a 22-250 vs a woodchuck. Won't be the same twice, but results will be dramatic. The 22-250 is a great varmint cartridge for sure. It does even better on prairie dogs than woodchucks. Dramatic is what you want for tracking a wounded animal. Lots of internal damage and a large exit and entrance wound. I've shot literally thousands of animals. With everything from FMJ's out of my 8mm Mauser, Hollow point match bullets in 6.5 and .224 diameter, varmint bullets, rimfires (slow velocity/high velocity), slug guns, to the SML and quite a few others. Never, have I seen a bullet or a target defy the laws of physics. And I refer to animals I pursue as targets, some of which are eaten and others are not. They are still targets. Just as bullets are bullets and physics is physics. Sure, animals can sometimes complete surprising feats in their last moments of life, that is a given and largely unpredictable. This is why sometimes we must track them. However, the performance of the projectile is completely bound by the laws of physics. And in relation to the location of where it impacts the target. There is another part of the velocity equation that is frequently left out. That is the rotational velocity of the projectile. This is a critical element to the equation for the damage created. Do the math sometime. It is pretty incredible how many RPM's a bullet is turning as it exits the muzzle. The faster a bullet spins the more likely it will reliably expand or separate in a target, or both. Both actions cause more internal damage. The trick is getting that reliable internal damage and an exit wound for a nice blood trail. Really, the only way to guarantee that is to go overkill for the game being pursued. When the firearm being used is just "adequate" for producing good internal damage at short distances, say under 150 yards. As the distance increases the likelihood of catastrophic tissue damage decreases very quickly. That's the laws of physics. Certainly, some projectiles perform better at low velocity than others. Those that explode within a target are a different kind of performance. Sometimes this is desirable, and sometimes not. However, even the most explosive bullet, once the distance becomes great enough, will only leave a small entrance wound and a small exit wound. Example, the 17 HMR. Fantastic varmint cartridge, it quickly became one of my top choices. Bullets go in and don't come out. All the energy is expended in the target. Well, I have shot a few woodchucks as far as 150 to 178 yards with that cartridge. Every time there's an exit wound. The velocity has dropped so much at that distance the bullet remains intact enough to pass completely through the target. With very little evidence of the bullet wound on either side of the animal. Big bullets follow the same laws of physics, it does not change. Sure, no one really "needs" 5,000 foot pounds of energy to kill a whitetail. But it sure does make a heck of a blood trail! And when the distance increases to the target there is still plenty to get the desired results. My deer at 285 yards just a couple weeks ago, 3 inch exit wound and a very obvious blood trail for the last 70 yards of it's life.
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Post by birdog on Dec 17, 2023 12:14:53 GMT -5
I will be in the woods this weekend with my Savage for our 1 week season. 250 gr.458 mono flex, 75 gr IMR4198, Harv CR Sabot and FED209A primer. 2,616 fps and shot a 1 1/8" 3 shot 100 yd group last weekend. One of the shots was in the gun since last year. I expect large blood trails but you never know. Will file a report if successful. FYI my barrel manufacturer recommends 100gr WEIGHED BH209 for my 45 Encore barrel. I choose to shoot smokeless but I can shoot 100gr/w of BH209 if I wish. 120gr/v of BH209 weighs out at 92-94gr with some of the latest lot# of BH209. The lot number I am using now 120gr/v weighs about 92gr.
So 100gr/w depending on the rifle is not unusual per se. I will state that one should never exceed 120gr/v in a barrel rated black powder only. One should weigh their particular charge to determine what that charge actually weighs, assuming you choose to weigh at all.
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