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Post by ballistic on Dec 2, 2023 10:55:14 GMT -5
The 3-B,s of Accuracy
Let’s leave bullets out this time and just discuss barrels and bedding VS Actions.
It’s interesting to see that actions aren’t included in the 3 B,s of accuracy but should be. Bedding should include the action by definition -JMO
Dan Lilja (Lilja barrels) wrote an in-depth article several years back about the actions role for accuracy with a good barrel and a tight benchrest chamber. It was surprising to hear that the barrel gave 99% of the accuracy in his article. He wrote that a complete tricked out action would only give a 1% increase in accuracy vs a standard Remington action. Again - this is with a benchrest (6 ppc) chamber - not a loose factory SAAMI spec chamber like a 5.56 for example.
So how important is the action for a muzzleloader ? The bullets alignment to bore isn’t dependent on the action - something to think about ?
Can you shoot good enough or get 99% of your accuracy with a factory Remington/Savage or other action? Will a .250” group shrink to .247” with a custom action (per dan Lilja) or do much better ?
Is a custom action necessary ?
I think if you’re shooting benchrest and are shooting for score - then absolutely.
I personally don’t believe that I need a custom action to shoot a muzzy well.
Make sure the barrel is indexed properly to the action. Bed the action into a good stock and replace the trigger or have a good gunsmith work the factory one over. For the budget minded -I would spend more for a good stock and have the action bedded -keeping the barrel free floated. JMO
Please feel free to say what works for you and comment on the above.
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Post by SURESHOT on Dec 2, 2023 12:20:43 GMT -5
Bedding I feel is important due to movement,,, as you mention the action and the CF is totally different animal,,the action I believe does not need to be blueprinted, the CUSTOM ML actions have a side bolt release and a cut out of the bolt head for the ease of primer install and removal, thats about it,JMO I do like the Remington 700 action on my builds I have had side bolt release installed for the ease of checking chamberbolt removal,
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sqezer
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by sqezer on Dec 2, 2023 12:55:17 GMT -5
I have found that if the action is allowed to move at all inside the stock it affects accuracy, then if you factor in if the barrel has hot spots (where the barrel touches the stock) that will also affect accuracy. I've seen it with Browning,Savage,Winchester, being mass product it's like QC went out the window. I have had great results from first off Free Floating the Barrel then Bedding the Action, I'll use Knight ML for an example, with only 1 stock action screw any movement inside the stock will result in Poor accuracy. I've also seen it with a Browning A-Bolt.
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Post by Deputy819 on Dec 2, 2023 14:24:35 GMT -5
ballisticI agree with you 100% on this one. I don’t feel like a custom action is necessary for what we do. Our SML’s don’t really depend on the “concentric relationship” between the bolt, cartridge and chamber interface…..a circle within a circle within another circle, you know what I mean?🤔 I absolutely want all my SML actions and the first 6 inches of the barrel bedded, too.
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Post by jimbob on Dec 2, 2023 18:43:53 GMT -5
Does a sml need a custom action no but us as builders we have to use what's available simple supply and demand can't buy just Remingtons actions anywhere but if we could then you had to fix bolt timing for extraction install a bolt stop maybe enlarge scope screws to 8-40 so a stock action cost 600.00 plus 200.00 for extra work that's 800.00 you can buy a Pure Precision (Mesa) for 900.00 or a Defiance for 1000.00 and there ready to go plus they have a couple extra features like a slotted bolt face for modules and push button bolt release which are nice
As far as bedding that's one of my pet pevs I bed the full length of the action plus 2 inches in front of lug
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Post by buckeye68 on Dec 2, 2023 21:39:47 GMT -5
Does a sml need a custom action no but us as builders we have to use what's available simple supply and demand can't buy just Remingtons actions anywhere but if we could then you had to fix bolt timing for extraction install a bolt stop maybe enlarge scope screws to 8-40 so a stock action cost 600.00 plus 200.00 for extra work that's 800.00 you can buy a Pure Precision (Mesa) for 900.00 or a Defiance for 1000.00 and there ready to go plus they have a couple extra features like a slotted bolt face for modules and push button bolt release which are nice As far as bedding that's one of my pet pevs I bed the full length of the action plus 2 inches in front of lug I’m with Jimbob on this one and very well said. Also, after send the money what another few hundred bucks to get what you really desire. Good post!! |
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Post by hillbill on Dec 3, 2023 9:14:46 GMT -5
X 3 on above
Necessary? Absolutely not!
But like many here I have spent almost as much on getting an action the way I want it as what a custom cost. In the end you have a bunch of money tied up you will never recover.
Yes bedding is very important, the harder the recoil, the more so it becomes.
If one already has a donor action, by all means use it!
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Post by hillbill on Dec 3, 2023 11:13:36 GMT -5
On this subject
Bedding a barreled action forward of the lug?
I have bedded many with barrel completely floated forward of the lug, mainly CF guns with light barrels.
SMLs?
I bed shorter, smaller contour barrels like a #6 or sendero .750 in front of the lug with great accuracy.
Heavier barrels I bed further up the channel, on the 1760 gun, I went 6”, also with good results.
# 17 or a longer tube I go 2”
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Post by jeepeater on Dec 3, 2023 12:34:06 GMT -5
Ive always been big on bedding 700 style actions, and I’ve built dozens. Also have always bedded Browning A-bolts and Winchester actions. Full length of the action and 3/4”-1” in front of the lug has been my normal. When I started building custom smokeless whether it was a factory 700 or clone I bedded as usual.
Over the last 3-4 months I started using mostly Mesa Altitude stocks on the light builds. The Mesa Altitude stock is made by AG Composites to Mesa’s (now Pure Precisions) specs. They’re well made, light stocks, and have aluminum pillars. The inletting is nice on these stocks. I’ll also use McMillan’s Game Scout, and Game Warden 2.0. Very similar specs to the Altitude stocks, aluminum pillars, weight is around 25-27 oz. Good stocks for the modified Sendero and #6 Brux contours.
Heavier builds with the #17 Brux I’ve been using Grayboe Ridgeback and Phoenix or Phoenix 2.0. These stocks are a little heavier than the Altitude and McMillans I mentioned earlier, but also have aluminum pillars and nice inletting.
I’ve said all this to say, after watching Ryan McMillan answer questions about Grayboe stocks, I decided to do a little testing and compare bedded vs non-bedded on similar builds. Ryan said bed if it makes you feel better, but they hadn’t noticed a difference.
I haven’t done any in depth testing, only compared 6 or so bedded rifles against 6 or so without bedding of very similar builds.
I have not been able to tell a difference between the bedded and non bedded as far as accuracy goes!
I always check and make sure the rear of the recoil lug makes solid contact against the inlet in the stock, and they’ve all had good contact. If they didn’t, I’d definitely bed them.
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Post by Deputy819 on Dec 3, 2023 13:25:18 GMT -5
jimbob said “if we could then you had to fix bolt timing for extraction” Hey, can you help me understand this? I’ve heard this mentioned before…….especially with the “RR” prefix actions. The first bolt-gun SML I had put together (barrel nut gun) had a “RR” prefix action and I never experienced any issues with extraction. Did I just get lucky?🤔
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Post by ballistic on Dec 3, 2023 14:50:24 GMT -5
Ive always been big on bedding 700 style actions, and I’ve built dozens. Also have always bedded Browning A-bolts and Winchester actions. Full length of the action and 3/4”-1” in front of the lug has been my normal. When I started building custom smokeless whether it was a factory 700 or clone I bedded as usual. Over the last 3-4 months I started using mostly Mesa Altitude stocks on the light builds. The Mesa Altitude stock is made by AG Composites to Mesa’s (now Pure Precisions) specs. They’re well made, light stocks, and have aluminum pillars. The inletting is nice on these stocks. I’ll also use McMillan’s Game Scout, and Game Warden 2.0. Very similar specs to the Altitude stocks, aluminum pillars, weight is around 25-27 oz. Good stocks for the modified Sendero and #6 Brux contours. Heavier builds with the #17 Brux I’ve been using Grayboe Ridgeback and Phoenix or Phoenix 2.0. These stocks are a little heavier than the Altitude and McMillans I mentioned earlier, but also have aluminum pillars and nice inletting. I’ve said all this to say, after watching Ryan McMillan answer questions about Grayboe stocks, I decided to do a little testing and compare bedded vs non-bedded on similar builds. Ryan said bed if it makes you feel better, but they hadn’t noticed a difference. I haven’t done any in depth testing, only compared 6 or so bedded rifles against 6 or so without bedding of very similar builds. I have not been able to tell a difference between the bedded and non bedded as far as accuracy goes! I always check and make sure the rear of the recoil lug makes solid contact against the inlet in the stock, and they’ve all had good contact. If they didn’t, I’d definitely bed them. The statement of not bedding being just as accurate might be the case on some builds can be true. What I have seen- As temps change on the barrel and the stock - the bedding helps keep the heat (heat creates stress) out of the stock. It’s like an insulator- keeps the heat off the pillars and aluminum bedding blocks. Also- as temps rise on the lug it can move out of full contact without bedding. I bed all around the recoil lug not just behind it to help. I just don’t bed the barrel forward of the lug at all if using aluminum bedding blocked (my preference) stocks. This was the case with rapid fire centerfire rifles where heat was an issue - and may not have much affect on a muzzy. I still do it out of habit. |
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Post by jeepeater on Dec 3, 2023 15:23:41 GMT -5
Ive always been big on bedding 700 style actions, and I’ve built dozens. Also have always bedded Browning A-bolts and Winchester actions. Full length of the action and 3/4”-1” in front of the lug has been my normal. When I started building custom smokeless whether it was a factory 700 or clone I bedded as usual. Over the last 3-4 months I started using mostly Mesa Altitude stocks on the light builds. The Mesa Altitude stock is made by AG Composites to Mesa’s (now Pure Precisions) specs. They’re well made, light stocks, and have aluminum pillars. The inletting is nice on these stocks. I’ll also use McMillan’s Game Scout, and Game Warden 2.0. Very similar specs to the Altitude stocks, aluminum pillars, weight is around 25-27 oz. Good stocks for the modified Sendero and #6 Brux contours. Heavier builds with the #17 Brux I’ve been using Grayboe Ridgeback and Phoenix or Phoenix 2.0. These stocks are a little heavier than the Altitude and McMillans I mentioned earlier, but also have aluminum pillars and nice inletting. I’ve said all this to say, after watching Ryan McMillan answer questions about Grayboe stocks, I decided to do a little testing and compare bedded vs non-bedded on similar builds. Ryan said bed if it makes you feel better, but they hadn’t noticed a difference. I haven’t done any in depth testing, only compared 6 or so bedded rifles against 6 or so without bedding of very similar builds. I have not been able to tell a difference between the bedded and non bedded as far as accuracy goes! I always check and make sure the rear of the recoil lug makes solid contact against the inlet in the stock, and they’ve all had good contact. If they didn’t, I’d definitely bed them. The statement of not bedding being just as accurate might be the case on some builds can be true. What I have seen- As temps change on the barrel and the stock - the bedding helps keep the heat (heat creates stress) out of the stock. It’s like an insulator- keeps the heat off the pillars and aluminum bedding blocks. Also- as temps rise on the lug it can move out of full contact without bedding. I bed all around the recoil lug not just behind it to help. I just don’t bed the barrel forward of the lug at all if using aluminum bedding blocked (my preference) stocks. This was the case with rapid fire centerfire rifles where heat was an issue - and may not have much affect on a muzzy. I still do it out of habit. The latest I built for myself is bedded, and I did so out of habit. I’ve built several on HS Precision stocks, and they’ve all been skim bedded because the machining of the full length aluminum bed isn’t accurate enough, and every action is a little different, so it insures good contact. There’s no doubt bedding is effective on centerfire builds. I won’t try to talk anyone out of bedding a smokeless build. I’m just saying, what I’ve seen so far, there’s no difference in accuracy in the builds with custom actions and the stocks that I’ve been using. On a side note, out of about a dozen of the latest builds of what I’d consider “spec” builds, meaning basically the same action, same make/twist/caliber. Similar stocks, triggers, all 20 MOA bases, and same scope manufacturer. I can pretty much call the 1st shot at 100 yards. I really wish I’d kept all the targets to get an aggregate group size of all the builds. The group of 1st shots would be pretty interesting. Modern manufacturing techniques have advanced to the point that components are very consistent. I can’t argue that temperature may have an affect on POI depending on how the lug contacts the stock. There’s lots of different approaches to bedding the lug, and many recommend taping the front of the lug during bedding, so there’s no bind. Then if you watch how the benchrest guys bed, they want the front lug held tight with no movement when the action screws are removed. Others literally glue the action in rather than bed it. I want to make it clear, I’m not against bedding. I’m just sharing what I’m seeing so far on builds that are not bedded as far as accuracy goes. |
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Post by ballistic on Dec 3, 2023 15:57:06 GMT -5
The statement of not bedding being just as accurate might be the case on some builds can be true. What I have seen- As temps change on the barrel and the stock - the bedding helps keep the heat (heat creates stress) out of the stock. It’s like an insulator- keeps the heat off the pillars and aluminum bedding blocks. Also- as temps rise on the lug it can move out of full contact without bedding. I bed all around the recoil lug not just behind it to help. I just don’t bed the barrel forward of the lug at all if using aluminum bedding blocked (my preference) stocks. This was the case with rapid fire centerfire rifles where heat was an issue - and may not have much affect on a muzzy. I still do it out of habit. The latest I built for myself is bedded, and I did so out of habit. I’ve built several on HS Precision stocks, and they’ve all been skim bedded because the machining of the full length aluminum bed isn’t accurate enough, and every action is a little different, so it insures good contact. There’s no doubt bedding is effective on centerfire builds. I won’t try to talk anyone out of bedding a smokeless build. I’m just saying, what I’ve seen so far, there’s no difference in accuracy in the builds with custom actions and the stocks that I’ve been using. On a side note, out of about a dozen of the latest builds of what I’d consider “spec” builds, meaning basically the same action, same make/twist/caliber. Similar stocks, triggers, all 20 MOA bases, and same scope manufacturer. I can pretty much call the 1st shot at 100 yards. I really wish I’d kept all the targets to get an aggregate group size of all the builds. The group of 1st shots would be pretty interesting. Modern manufacturing techniques have advanced to the point that components are very consistent. I can’t argue that temperature may have an affect on POI depending on how the lug contacts the stock. There’s lots of different approaches to bedding the lug, and many recommend taping the front of the lug during bedding, so there’s no bind. Then if you watch how the benchrest guys bed, they want the front lug held tight with no movement when the action screws are removed. Others literally glue the action in rather than bed it. I want to make it clear, I’m not against bedding. I’m just sharing what I’m seeing so far on builds that are not bedded as far as accuracy goes. Jeepeater Hopefully my post wasn’t taken wrongly on yours - if so I apologize. I agree with what you’re saying 100%. Every build is different and every bedding is different. Just like the glue ins - most are 8-10” glued up the barrel channel. And the glue -ins have what ? Most of the bench rest records right ? I’ve been told I don’t bed correctly by others -lots of ways to do it. I was just trying to point out (the whys) on my experiences of bedding. Hope all is good with you and I ? |
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Post by jimbob on Dec 3, 2023 19:16:48 GMT -5
jimbob said “if we could then you had to fix bolt timing for extraction” Hey, can you help me understand this? I’ve heard this mentioned before…….especially with the “RR” prefix actions. The first bolt-gun SML I had put together (barrel nut gun) had a “RR” prefix action and I never experienced any issues with extraction. Did I just get lucky?🤔 IMO you got lucky ! I have had to fix 95% of the ones I've done Hank once told he didn't even check them anymore just go ahead and fixed them the reason for the fix is they didn't have any primary extraction as you lift the bolt the action and bolt have mating surfaces which acts as a cam action to start pulling the case or module out of the chamber or breech plug if you don't have this you have to slap up and back on the bolt handle to get it open The way I Would check them is to strip down the bolt (remove firing pin) and action then take a measurement with a feeler gage between the bolt handle when its closed and the action body if they were more than .015 I fixed them I've seen as much as .040 this is quite labor intensive you take a torch heat the bolt handle to remove it from the bolt body then you have to clean all the factory solder from the bolt handle and the bolt shaft I made a threaded spud to screw in the action and hold the lugs tight after I lined the a modified bolt schroud holding a cocking piece in the firing slot in the bolt then clamp the bolt handle with a pair of modified needle nose vise grip and tig weld the handle back on I wound shoot for .004 clearance I do have a new Remington ultimate in the shop now to convert it appears they have corrected this issue (HE HAW) it checked .008 serial # RAR Hope this helps D819 Back to the bedding each builder has there on way of doing things which is fine what ever works for you I know some Benchrest builders that glue there actions in and I don't bed under the barrel on Benchrest guns either because we change barrels so often I just know on a SML I want some support under the barrel where the BOMB goes off |
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Post by jeepeater on Dec 3, 2023 21:27:30 GMT -5
The latest I built for myself is bedded, and I did so out of habit. I’ve built several on HS Precision stocks, and they’ve all been skim bedded because the machining of the full length aluminum bed isn’t accurate enough, and every action is a little different, so it insures good contact. There’s no doubt bedding is effective on centerfire builds. I won’t try to talk anyone out of bedding a smokeless build. I’m just saying, what I’ve seen so far, there’s no difference in accuracy in the builds with custom actions and the stocks that I’ve been using. On a side note, out of about a dozen of the latest builds of what I’d consider “spec” builds, meaning basically the same action, same make/twist/caliber. Similar stocks, triggers, all 20 MOA bases, and same scope manufacturer. I can pretty much call the 1st shot at 100 yards. I really wish I’d kept all the targets to get an aggregate group size of all the builds. The group of 1st shots would be pretty interesting. Modern manufacturing techniques have advanced to the point that components are very consistent. I can’t argue that temperature may have an affect on POI depending on how the lug contacts the stock. There’s lots of different approaches to bedding the lug, and many recommend taping the front of the lug during bedding, so there’s no bind. Then if you watch how the benchrest guys bed, they want the front lug held tight with no movement when the action screws are removed. Others literally glue the action in rather than bed it. I want to make it clear, I’m not against bedding. I’m just sharing what I’m seeing so far on builds that are not bedded as far as accuracy goes. Jeepeater Hopefully my post wasn’t taken wrongly on yours - if so I apologize. I agree with what you’re saying 100%. Every build is different and every bedding is different. Just like the glue ins - most are 8-10” glued up the barrel channel. And the glue -ins have what ? Most of the bench rest records right ? I’ve been told I don’t bed correctly by others -lots of ways to do it. I was just trying to point out (the whys) on my experiences of bedding. Hope all is good with you and I ? Yes sir, we’re good. I didn’t take anything from yours as going against, and I hope you didn’t feel like I did either. Like you, I’m here to share information and learn. |
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Post by Deputy819 on Dec 3, 2023 22:39:49 GMT -5
jimbob said: “this is quite labor intensive you take a torch heat the bolt handle to remove it from the bolt body then you have to clean all the factory solder from the bolt handle and the bolt shaft I made a threaded spud to screw in the action and hold the lugs tight after I lined the a modified bolt schroud holding a cocking piece in the firing slot in the bolt then clamp the bolt handle with a pair of modified needle nose vise grip and tig weld the handle back on I wound shoot for .004 clearance.” WOW! Yeah, I could see how you gunsmiths would certainly appreciate a customer bringing you a ‘custom’ action for their SML builds. GEEZ! 😵💫
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Post by hillbill on Dec 5, 2023 9:51:17 GMT -5
Several years ago I bedded full contact on the lug.
There are 2 problems with that approach
It makes the gun very hard to remove from the stock, and if it’s not a machined lug it can be more than difficult
Also when replacing the barreled action it’s easy to shave off bedding with the recoil lug and it falls down into the lug recess, with no space you end up with an unseated action.
I learned this the hard way over time.
I now tape the front of the lug with 2 layers on the bottom.
It has worked very well for me on many bedding jobs, it also makes removal from the stock very easy.
Just my routine.
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Post by jeepeater on Dec 5, 2023 19:27:32 GMT -5
Several years ago I bedded full contact on the lug. There are 2 problems with that approach It makes the gun very hard to remove from the stock, and if it’s not a machined lug it can be more than difficult Also when replacing the barreled action it’s easy to shave off bedding with the recoil lug and it falls down into the lug recess, with no space you end up with an unseated action. I learned this the hard way over time. I now tape the front of the lug with 2 layers on the bottom. It has worked very well for me on many bedding jobs, it also makes removal from the stock very easy. Just my routine. I agree with the lug needing relief, otherwise it makes its own relief, and not in a good way. I do the same to relieve the lug, a layer of tape on the front, 2 layers on the bottom. Modeling clay in the holes, a couple applications of shoe polish as a release agent. I’ve tried pretty much every bedding compound as well. Brownells agcraglass kits were my go to, but they’ve gotten bad about not having things in stock. Now I use original JB weld or Marine Tex. |
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