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Post by Richard on Sept 4, 2017 20:34:13 GMT -5
First of all let me just say that this post is not a plug for OR against the .40; just my personal assessment FWIW?
Kyle has come up with some great bullets for the .40 and from all indications I see, they shoot very well......that being said, his .45 cal. bullets also shoot very well and from what I initially see, right alongside the 40's. So, for those who are more NEW to this smokeless stuff, don't get the impression that you HAVE TO HAVE a .40 to hunt or target shoot with?
If I was maybe 20 years younger, I might consider building another rifle in .40 or rebarreling my present gun in that caliber........but I am not! For me going to the .40 means getting involved in MORE bullets and additional die(s) . Right now I have a total of eight (8) sizing dies for .452" bullets: five are fixed and three are adjustable with FF and smooth inserts. I am not interested in having to buy more dies and bullets just so I can say I have a .40?
Another consideration is the intended use for the .40 vs. the .45. Many states don't allow the .40 for hunting? I live in NC and do not have that problem...............but, I am also not hunting........so that is a moot point for me. Second, there is not formal or for that matter, and informal smokeless muzzle loader matches........at least not in my neck of the woods so I have no need for a caliber that "may" be only "marginally" more accurate. It will remain to be seen how much if any increase there is in accuracy. Anyone who has been to the Kentucky Challenge has seen some exceptional groups being shot with the .45. Hank's video's of killing critters in excess of 400 yards is proof that the .45 is an accurate caliber, given an accurate rifle and a capable trigger puller. I agree that when we migrated from the original Savage .50 cal. with the available bullets and sabots down to the .45 with sabots there was a BIG difference. We then started going sabot less and found more improvement in accuracy and the ability to shoot with warmer barrels and not having to worry about "blowing" sabots. The Kyle came along with precision bullets and accuracy and consistency really improved.
When it comes to hunting, I believe a poll would indicate that most deer are shot well under 300 yards and realistically, probably much less than that? It has been shown that with the rifles we now have available to us, the .45 is way more than capable of effectively taking deer size animals beyond 300 to 400 yards with the proper set up and trigger puller. Then some will say well...............there is less recoil with the .40? Yes, maybe if you shoot a light bullets at lower velocities?.........same can be said of the .45 also? Looking at some of the velocities Scat was showing above 3000 fps, even with 225 or 250 gr. bullets they will "thump" you! And then here comes the 275 AccuMax and you are getting back up to the .45?
When you look at some of the western states and their hunting regulations you find many don't allow smaller the .45 and you have to use black powder or a sub.? during their muzzle loader season. Sure, during their rifle season you can use smoke less but then most hunters will be using their CF rifles?
In fact, I just ordered a new .45 barrel from Jeff the other day vs. a .40. I just did not want members and particularly new members..........new to smokeless to think that because some are now playing with the .40 that their .45 they just bought has become a dinosaur?
So I repeat, this post is not meant to badmouth the .40 in any way, just present some facts as perceived by an older fart!
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tedb
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Post by tedb on Sept 4, 2017 20:52:16 GMT -5
Thanks for your honest opinion. It does help person like me who is trying to make a decision
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Post by Kyle on Sept 4, 2017 21:05:05 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts on the .40 :
People asked for a .40 I gave it my best effort I've lived up to my end of the bargain They will be available soon
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2017 21:19:04 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts on the .40 : People asked for a .40 I gave it my best effort I've lived up to my end of the bargain They will be available soon You've offered/made all copper and now cup and core in different weights... I am going .40 ASAP, they are legal in Fl...I'm going to have a hard time deciding which of Kyle's bullets I'm going to Kill with.....
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Post by 150class on Sept 4, 2017 22:09:53 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts on the .40 : People asked for a .40 I gave it my best effort I've lived up to my end of the bargain They will be available soon Huge interest in them but not legal in my state unless in a sabot, so, probably will never own one. Not a huge problem though since your .452s do the job just fine!
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Post by 10gaauto on Sept 4, 2017 22:49:07 GMT -5
Jeez, I did 2 builds in 50 cal this year. Mostly because that is what is best for the not so SML addicted hunter. I'll develop loads and hunt them for a couple years and then pass them on to the sons in law and grandsons. 40 cal bullets are only legal here in VA if you're shooting them in sabots. "45" is legal minimum bore for ML guns for deer and bear. I'll try some of the 40 rocketships in HSB in my 45 guns and see how I like them. Really interesting to see where SML is going. To each his own. JMHO others will differ. 10
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Post by hillbill on Sept 5, 2017 4:10:18 GMT -5
MY THOUGHTS ON THE .40
Richard makes some good points, the .45 is the mainstay for these smokeless guns and for good reason. will the .40 be inherently more accurate than the .45? I doubt it but time will tell.
Having done guns in .45,.416,.40 and .375 I guess you could say I like to tinker, some might think I have too much time on my hands? NOT!, some think I'm just crazy? MAYBE? So why the .40?
I never really jumped on the .40 band wagon until recently, why? bullet choice plain and simple. It never interested me to shoot a 195 Barnes or 200 SST out of a dedicated .40 tube when I shot them for years accurately out of my .45 barrels.
When Kyle started talking about the .40 project I knew then I would build a .40 just to try his new bullets, the .40 is legal in most places I hunt and when one can shoot a higher BC bullet either faster OR with less recoil from using a lighter pill it only makes sense to me to give it a whirl and see what it's all about.
Are there any real advantages to the .40? lighter recoil with a lighter bullet weight launched at a higher speed with a better BC? It's worth pursuing I think! Time will tell If the .40 is here to stay but I think it is for sure. Watch and see this time next year how many new .40s hit the ground, My bet is there will be many. Is it for everyone? Of course not, but then neither is the .45?
look at it this way, If I can shoot a .325 Aeromax in my .45 ( which is my bullet of choice) @ 2900 FPS I need a fairly heavy gun to do so, or get my brains rattled every time I pull the trigger, on the other hand I can shoot a 300 Hammer in the .40 with a much higher BC @ 2900 in a lighter platform with a good bit less drop at any given range, sounds pretty attractive to me?
My new bolt gun build will weigh 4-5 pounds less than my Ike gun but will lack nothing in performance to the .45, ( my plan anyway), but again that can be said for my .375 as well, it is truly a long range beast but legal in even less states than the .40.
I'm very anxious to try both the Hammer and Kyle's newest offering on animals to see how they do, my bet is that both do very well.
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Post by schunter on Sept 5, 2017 8:22:42 GMT -5
For a hunting gun I really love my .40
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Post by nyhunter on Sept 5, 2017 8:33:04 GMT -5
My interest in SML is derived from a hunting standpoint of view.
All things being equal the .402 bullet is shooting considerably flatter.
Using the stated BC of .360 for the 250 and an average of 3000 FPS it appears you could have a 0 - 300 yard point and shoot gun.
The ballistic data shows approximately the following with a 250 yard zero.
100 yards / +2.45 150 yards / +2.94 200 yards / +2.17 250 yards / 0.00 300 yards / -3.70
Of course we would need to verify this at the range, however with some tweaking this could prove to be a big asset when hunting for those whom are not using a ballistic turret or reticle.
This could be especially useful should the need arise to take a longer shot out of a lightweight break action SML gun such as a TC or CVA setup as a woods gun that typically wouldn't sport the large Nightforce type scopes.
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Post by dannoboone on Sept 5, 2017 9:53:24 GMT -5
It seems insane to me, derelict of all common sense, for a state to allow an underpowered .357 pistol cartridge (as long as the barrel is at least 4") while NOT allowing anything less than .44 in a muzzle loader to hunt deer. Yet that is what we are stuck with in Iowa.
For all the positive reasons given above, I would otherwise scrape the money together and rebarrel the .458 700ml.
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Post by eml9 on Sept 5, 2017 13:50:20 GMT -5
I would love to have a .40 just to mess with something new ..unfortunately delaware has a "minimum .42 cal " law so I'll just keep on plugging with the .45's.
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Post by Richard on Sept 5, 2017 22:02:28 GMT -5
Don't feel your just plugging with the .45! That is part of the reason I put the post on the forum so people don't think that because the .40 is not legal in their state or they can't afford another rifle, that they are being "handicapped?" YOU ARE NOT! The .45 will do about everything the .40 will do with possibly some VERY long range shooting..........and that could be debateable? We have choices? Keep in mind there are a lot of good .45 cal. bullets available that lend themselves to valuable trigger time at the range. If you are just thinking of getting into smoke less and your state allows .40 cal. for hunting then this might be course you want to pursue? Or, if you just want to "tinker" (as Bill calls it), the .40 is another option? But then you can say the same about the .30 (which Scat is playing with) or the .270 which Hammer is playing with and any other caliber you can think of. Just remember, for each of these calibers goes more bullets, more dies, different ram rods and starters. On the other hand, the .45 will do about anything you want from shooting ground squirrels to rhino's. Bullet weights can range from most any .45 pistol bullet to some that weight up to 400 gr. with almost every manufacturer making some form of them. Plus the availability of super accurate bullets by Kyle Pittman, Bob Parker, Dennis at Fury and probably a few others. Its not a "One vs. the Other" but rather which fits your needs and pocketbook........or "winds your watch!" Most recently I had my first opportunity to shoot my .45 at 600 yards with Kyle's 300 gr. AccuMax and after some sight adjustments was able to put three shots (in a row) in 4 7/8". Could the .40 do it? Not a doubt in my mind!...........Choices!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2017 22:48:07 GMT -5
While a 40 may not be legal in some states, it is legal in every state I hunt. My new 35 Whelen is the smallest legal ml in my home state of TN. I primarily hunt with break opens because they are light, handy and are good for most all of my hunting ranges. Sure, I can set up in a cut bean field and pick some deer off at long range with my 45 or 40 but I have no desire to carry an 11 plus pound gun hunting very far when I have something lighter and every bit as deadly to carry.
Last year I built a 40 on a Savage Axis action bedded in a Boyds classic stock with a McGowen knurl up barrel. I took the 200sst hunting at 3100 fps and the 200 sst lost it's mind. I was disappointed in the sst but now that Kyle has the .402 jacketed ballistic missles I am excited again. I will be able to shoot a lighter bullet than my 45 with a higher bc which will expand my point-n-shoot range dramatically with less recoil too. One more thing no one has mentioned is the extra margin of safety offered by the smaller bore which allows the barrel walls to be thicker.
After shooting the 250gr Pittman 40 cal jacketed projectiles yesterday, I am convinced they were meant to be. I shot 2 main loads almost 300 fps apart that both grouped right at the .4" mark with absolutely no tuning what so ever. Just hatched them in QL and fired up the RCBS Chargemaster. I can't say enough good things about the Rock Creek barrel either.
One last thought...If 7mm or 30 cal were so good then why is there a 6.5CM...Because in some ways it is better...The 40 is here to stay.
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Post by hillbill on Sept 6, 2017 4:07:37 GMT -5
We have lots of choices now for sure, One needs to weigh all options before laying down the cash for a new barrel or new gun but the cool thing is we now have all these options to look at.
I commend Kyle for going out on a limb to fill a need, I know how much money he invested in this project and it is considerable. Last season I tested the 325 Accumax and Aeromax in .45, this season It will be all things .40 for me and I'm looking forward to it. which bullet will I settle on??? maybe the Hammer? maybe the Accumax? It will be fun finding out!
I agree with Scat, as far as the shoot ability of the .40 with the bullets I have used so far? Stellar! Yes the .40 is here to stay and anyone contemplating one? jump in head first, the water is fine!
Will I sell all my .45 stuff?? Of course not but I think it will get much less use.
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Post by doug136 on Sept 6, 2017 7:56:49 GMT -5
My only concern is avaability of bullets . I have no doubt Kyle will build a excellent bullet . I shoot a lot. I don't want to have to worry about getting bullets . Will a person be able to get these bullets without having to be on a waiting list ? Or is a person like myself gonna have to buy large quantities ? Thats tuff to do when you dont know what weight you need .I want to make sure I can get these bullets before shelling out thousands of dollars building a gun to find out I can't get bullets . I'm not trying to be a a$$ I'm being honest .
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Post by Kyle on Sept 6, 2017 8:55:45 GMT -5
My only concern is avaability of bullets . I have no doubt Kyle will build a excellent bullet . I shoot a lot. I don't want to have to worry about getting bullets . Will a person be able to get these bullets without having to be on a waiting list ? Or is a person like myself gonna have to buy large quantities ? Thats tuff to do when you dont know what weight you need .I want to make sure I can get these bullets before shelling out thousands of dollars building a gun to find out I can't get bullets . I'm not trying to be a a$$ I'm being honest . I have selected a different bullet smith to make my .402's. The first order of bullets will be finalized after testing is complete this weekend. How many of each grain weight ordered will depend on test results and results of the grain weight poll. To those who have not voted, I encourage you to do so. I appreciate all of my customers and I do my best to ensure the products they want are available to the best of my ability. I had a customer need some Aeromax 325's, that I sold him the 50 I had put back for myself to hunt with for this coming season. I've bent over backwards more than once to ensure that customers needs are met. The maker of my .402's should be able to keep up with the demands of my customers. I encourage my customers that are high volume shooters to order ahead of time accordingly once they settle on a weight of bullet. Bullets will be sold in order of the orders placed, waiting list or not.
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Post by hillbill on Sept 6, 2017 9:16:59 GMT -5
The demand for .40s will be no where near what the .45 is, at least for a while til it catches on, I would have no worry at all about the availability of .40 bullets.
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Post by nyhunter on Sept 6, 2017 9:30:58 GMT -5
My only concern is avaability of bullets . I have no doubt Kyle will build a excellent bullet . I shoot a lot. I don't want to have to worry about getting bullets . Will a person be able to get these bullets without having to be on a waiting list ? Or is a person like myself gonna have to buy large quantities ? Thats tuff to do when you dont know what weight you need .I want to make sure I can get these bullets before shelling out thousands of dollars building a gun to find out I can't get bullets . I'm not trying to be a a$$ I'm being honest . I have selected a different bullet smith to make my .402's. The first order of bullets will be finalized after testing is complete this weekend. How many of each grain weight ordered will depend on test results and results of the grain weight poll. To those who have not voted, I encourage you to do so. I appreciate all of my customers and I do my best to ensure the products they want are available to the best of my ability. I had a customer need some Aeromax 325's, that I sold him the 50 I had put back for myself to hunt with for this coming season. I've bent over backwards more than once to ensure that customers needs are met. The maker of my .402's should be able to keep up with the demands of my customers. I encourage my customers that are high volume shooters to order ahead of time accordingly once they settle on a weight of bullet. Bullets will be sold in order of the orders placed, waiting list or not. I just happen to be one of the customers Kyle is referring to when he stated he has " bent over backwards more than once to ensure that customers needs are met".
I was getting ready for a upcoming Midwest hunt and decided at the last minute to change my scope and vary my load slightly. Of course nothing ever go's as planed and I wound up using far more bullets then anticipated. Upon contacting Kyle to purchase some more he unfortunately informed he was out of stock. Kyle them proceeded to help me track down some of the bullets he had already sold so as to ensure I had the bullets needed, If that's not "going over and beyond" for his customer then I don't what is. For those of us who know Kyle personally this comes as no surprise, that's just the kind of person he is. Additionally I would like to also personally thank the members that were kind enough to send me some of their own personal coveted Pittman Bullets. Gentleman you could not find a better group of individuals then those on this board. Best of luck this season and stay well.
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Post by elkman1310 on Sept 6, 2017 9:33:22 GMT -5
Since Kyle is having .40 Caliber bullets made to his spec's I am certain they will be high quality bullets for sure. Pa. is like most other backwards thinking states with no .40cal's for muzzleloader hunting. Since the new .40caliber is still a flat base the B.C. will not be that much greater than my 325gr Aero which is my bullet of choice. With a 12lb gun and a good brake recoil is not bad at all.
Since a lot of guys have been asking for a good custom made built for the .40 I hope you support Kyle in this effort.
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Post by schunter on Sept 6, 2017 10:25:42 GMT -5
.36 caliber minimum in SC. Cant wait to try them out....
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