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Post by elkman1310 on Oct 15, 2016 9:23:38 GMT -5
It seems that everyone holds their rifle a little different than the next guy. I shot off hand competition for a long time and I always rolled the rifle into me. Just by changing the angle of your elbow it will give you a totally different sight picture of the cross hair.
With the rifle held in a vise or shooting caddie of some kind you can level the rifle going off the bases mounted on the action. When you mount the scope that has target knobs most people want to level the target knob with the rifle but when they do that a lot of times the cross hairs are not straight up and down. All scope manufactures have a allowable tolerance for centering the recital during assembly Leupold says it can be off 3% or more. If you find it to be not acceptable you can send the scope back and they will center it. It sure would be nice if they did it right the first time around. These new VX6 scopes are out more than 3% My Burris Veracity scopes have been dead on My Sightrons were close and they were better than my NightForce so they all suffer the same problem. The old Unertl scopes had a set screw on the side of the tube that you could loosen and center the recital which was really a nice feature.
I put the rifle in my mill vise and level the rifle going off the scope bases. Then install the scope and line the cross hair with a leveled target across the shop. I works much better than trying to level the turrets they can be off several degrees. The real proof is in the shooting. If you think you scope is level go to the range and tested it. Use a target that is tall enough that you can run at least 10 moa up at 100 yards. the more elevation the better. Draw a line through the center of the target so you have a reference to compare. Fire a shot or two to make sure you are hitting dead center than click your scope up 10 moa or more and see where that shot lands. If the scope is centered that shot should be right on the center line. If your scope is canted it will be off of the center line either left or right. This is important if you plan on shooting at longer ranges.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 10:25:05 GMT -5
Too many variables using the base as a known level. That is nothing more than a stack up.of tolerances. The scope must be directly above the bore. I use this tool. www.riflescopelevel.com/vertical_retical_instrument.html It will confirm scope and barrel centerline to be vertically in line. With it installed and level, I align the vertical cross hair at a plum Bob weighted string suspended on a 100 yard target board. With the level tool showing level, the vertical cross hair aligned with the string, I install a scope level permanently on the scope for verification before squeezing the trigger. There is a further fine tuning procedure that can be done if needed in case the cross hairs are out of alignment internally with the turrets. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 11:25:59 GMT -5
I have seen exactly what your saying and coming from someone that has learned the hard way, I'm still learning. I just recently started leveling the action with the bolt out. Then I used a house down the street and lined cross hair with the corner of the house hoping that was level and straight. Seems to work.
After reading your comment on scope tracking, this will be my next test. Thanks for the info.
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Post by doug136 on Oct 15, 2016 12:59:48 GMT -5
Very interesting
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 14:15:56 GMT -5
I have seen exactly what your saying and coming from someone that has learned the hard way, I'm still learning. I just recently started leveling the action with the bolt out. Then I used a house down the street and lined cross hair with the corner of the house hoping that was level and straight. Seems to work. After reading your comment on scope tracking, this will be my next test. Thanks for the info. A quick test is to trace the plumb Bob line onto the target board at least 36 inches long but longer is better. With the gun zeroed, fire a shot at a bullseye on the lower end of the line. Then come up 36moa or more if your line is longer and fire a shot at the same bullseye on the bottom of the line. This shot should fall on the line but at the upper end. If the shot lands to the right, the scope should be rotated slightly counterclockwise. All of this must be done utilizing the scope level to confirm the gun NOT canted while aiming/shooting. I am no expert but I do believe in the sharing of info. |
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Post by elkman1310 on Oct 15, 2016 14:40:57 GMT -5
The main reason for the post is I like to mount the customers scope and shoot the rifle to verify that everything is working properly. And I always have someone tell me the scope is canted because the turrets are not level. It can be frustrating to tell someone it is not when they just spent $1,500.00 on a high end scope. They don't believe it is till they look through the scope at the target in my shop.. I tell them you are free to change it but it won't be right.
Scat that is a good test with the plumb bob line depending on the scope and the base most scopes don't have 36MOA up after mounting especially on a Rem 700 action and a Leupold scope. A Mark 4 would but many of the other models are starved for elevation.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 14:52:07 GMT -5
You are correct about the amount of come up in a scope but in that event, just use all that you have.
One thing I failed to mention is that once all of this is complete there is one more test for scope skew.
If your poa and poi are not really close at say 300 yards or more, the scope could be skewed. In other words it is not in line with the barrel. Most likely the holes in the receiver or base are not aligned with the reciever/barrel centerline. Also, it is a good idea to true the action face before installing a barrel because it could aim the barrel off to the side,etc. Causing the same effect as misdrilled base holes or action scope threaded holes.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Oct 15, 2016 15:15:59 GMT -5
I like the tool concept a lot. And the plumbob is a very god method also. I have seen a benchrest shooter do it at the range @50 yards with a bright orange level set on top of the target frame. And use small wedges to level it. Then come back to the bench and level thecrosshairs horizontally. But that still doesnt address fact of the action being leveled. I think I need one of these tools suggested
Drop
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Post by doug136 on Oct 15, 2016 17:34:14 GMT -5
If the crosshairs are level even if the gun is canted a little will the point of impact stay the same as distance increases as long as you level the scope . I have a tendency to cant the gun the gun a little . If I look through someone else's gun the crosshairs always look off to me and vice versa for someone looking through my gun .
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Post by elkman1310 on Oct 15, 2016 18:18:51 GMT -5
Doug you have the same problem I have and many other shooters. It's a bad habit that is hard to break. For all practical purposes the gun should sit level on your rifle rest and the cross hairs should be level. On my high power silhouette rifle I actually rolled the stock into me a pretty good angle. That said It never hurt my shooting off hand out to 500 meters. And I didn't change my windage adjustment for canting the rifle I only adjusted for actual conditions I shot in. But it is a proven fact that canting will change impact at long distances.
If I get a chance I will shoot my muzzleloader at 600yards. This one is a bench rest model and I have a level on the scope. It will be pretty easy to see what effect it will have at that distance. If I do the test I will take some pictures and post them.
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Post by Richard on Oct 15, 2016 18:40:39 GMT -5
I have routed in a horizontal slot on the tops of all my target frames and glued in a cheap bubble level. I first level the top of the target frame and then put silicone in the channel and push the level in making sure IT is level. This way, I know if my rifle is canted. Of course, that is after a procedure similar
to the above is accomplished to assure the scope is properly mounted.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 18:53:56 GMT -5
If the crosshairs are level even if the gun is canted a little will the point of impact stay the same as distance increases as long as you level the scope . I have a tendency to cant the gun the gun a little . If I look through someone else's gun the crosshairs always look off to me and vice versa for someone looking through my gun . Doug, I think the poi will be ok as long as the cross hair is level while shooting. In other words, find the amount of cant that suits you and use the plumb bob method to align the vertical crosshair. Install the scope level onto the scope with its' bubble centered when the 2 conditions are true. If your natural hold is held every time, the level should show level every time and the POI should be true. Some competitive shooters say that only having the cross hair level when your natural hold is on is good enough and they don't use a scope level during shooting. I don't shoot as much as they do so I just get everything plumb as stated before. However, a 20moa base could alter things quite a bit. I can say this. I use BDC's a lot when hunting. If the scope is canted, poi can be off a good bit at 300 yards and above especially when shooting loads that have more drop whether because of low BC or lower velocities or both. Before I started doing this, I was at a friends place shooting 400 yards in a cut bean field. With a 100 yard zero, I was 6" right at 400 yards. We leveled my scope with his Wheeler level-level in the port and was then 3" right. Later, I ordered the tool in my post. After using it AND installing a scope level,, my poi was less than 1" off center. Note, these were all shot groups not single shots. |
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Post by doug136 on Oct 15, 2016 21:21:03 GMT -5
All of this is very interesting . I have always canted a gun and bow for some reason . I actually can't my bow the same way I do my gun . Into me exactly like Elkman stated . If I level the gun and my Bubble it just does not feel right . I actually shoot my Hankins with the bubble slightly off center to feel right . I'm gonna buy one of those wheeler tools and try to teach my self to shoot like I should . Like I said this is interesting I'm always looking to learn and improve .
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Post by linebaugh on Oct 16, 2016 8:40:44 GMT -5
I have canted my guns my entire life and never knew there was a problem. I just set the scope up for my canting. Until recently I never even knew there was a problem but I seldom shoot over 500 yards.
Alas this year I got back into trap shooting and bought a nice over under... could not hit crap with it. One day while trying to figure out what I was doing wrong a buddy watches me shoot and says "you are canting your gun terrible". Next few rounds I look down my rib and ooohhh my was it obvious.
To fix the problem I ordered an adjustable pad and have really grown fond of them. You can use the adjustable pad to roll your stock away from your face and in to a vertical position as well as lowering it for proper cheek weld. This is incredibly common in the trap field and it works so well I have begun to transfer it into my rifles as well. Im truly suprised we don't see as many adjustable pads on rifles as we do shotguns. The fix is so easy. I have not installed a truly adjustable pad on a rifle yet but I have ground the pads to correct my problem slightly. I do plan to add a fully adjustable pad.
By the way 90% or the trap or sporting guns I see have the pads adjuster lowered and set to cant the gun away from your face. It must be a very common thing.
Some food for thought on the adjustable pad idea. On a trap or sporting gun it is very common to lower the pad as well as rotating it. This allows you to maintain a more upright head posture and not have to contort into your gun. Just an idea here but I think this would prove very bennificial in the rifle sports as well. I will be trying this on my next build.
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