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Post by mike on Feb 20, 2016 0:01:30 GMT -5
Hey guys, Can anyone offer their experience pertaining to the accuracy improvement achieved from neck turning their brass to obtain more precise bullet to case concentricity? Before I invest in a case neck lathe and metrology equipement to measure the case neck and loaded bullet concentricity, not to mention the amount of extra work, I'd like to know what accuracy benefit I can expect. I hand load a number of cartridge calibers including .22-250, .243, 25 WSSM, .270, 30-06, 300 WSM and .338. Thanks for any information offered.
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Post by keith on Feb 20, 2016 6:14:09 GMT -5
Unless your gun is chambered in a way that requires it then I say pass. One of the primary ways to sort brass is by neck thickness. Cases that exhibit large variations in neck thickness are likely to have have other problems too. Just because a technique works for one shooting discipline doesn't mean it's a good idea for another.
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Post by rojo23 on Feb 20, 2016 6:38:41 GMT -5
I agree with Keith on this. I spoke with a very well known rifle builder about this subject. he said the only time he neck turns is when the chamber requires it. Some of the chambers he cuts, have tight necks and factory ammo will not chamber. Most of the calibers he chambers he offer either no-turn neck, or factory neck. He did say if you resize your brass for a different caliber you may need to neck turn those. For example, using 308 brass to load 7-08 or .243 those may need to be neck turned.
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Post by Hank on Feb 20, 2016 9:32:10 GMT -5
Keith and Ronnie are dead on. If you're shooting factory rifles then the chambers in them are already pretty sloppy. (Oversized) You should fire form your brass then neck size only untill you need to bump the shoulders back and then only bump them a few thou.. .002 or so. If you turn your necks let's say just .003, that's .0015 on each side the that creates that much more neck clearance and your case neck will expand that much more and cause them to crack much sooner than normal.
The reason for most people to turn necks is to minimize neck tension on the bullet and extend neck life. If you have a 6 BR chambered with a .268 neck you will need to turn the necks. You would want to turn the necks to .266 measured with a bullet seated. This allows you a .001 clearance around the neck to release the bullet but keeps the neck from expanding excessively shortening the case neck life. Some shooters will set up there brass with a .0015 clearance on both sids so your loaded cartridge would measure .265.
I have two rifles that require turned necks. My 6mm AI and my 300 WSM Varminter.. Turning the necks is not hard once you get the tool set you can turn a 100 cases in an hour or two, both these rifle are extremely accurate but I don't think it's the neck turning that makes them accurate.. The chambers are minimum spec so the cartridges lock up a little tighter than on a factory clambering minimizing clearance in the chamber.
The bad thing about tight neck chambers is you can't shoot any ammo from the store and you must make sure you do not, if you forget and force a factory she'll in there and pull the trigger you will create extreme high pressures because the bullet can't release and could cause a catastrophic failure..
Neck turning is for the bench rest shooters, hunters and AR shooters should stay away from neck turning. IMO
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Post by mike on Feb 20, 2016 17:40:59 GMT -5
Thanks for your opinions, guys. Guess I'm just getting a bit too anal about my hand loading in search of the "perfect" cartridge. What caught my attention was measuring the case neck wall thickness variation of new Hornady cases. Saw variation on individual cases of up to .001" to .0015". This of course produces bullet to case concentricity error equal to the variation and that is why I started to consider neck turning the brass. I'm not a competition shooter, just enjoy recreational shooting and assembling my own ammo. All of my rifles are high-end custom builds and just thought they deserved to shoot the best hand loads I can assemble. Based on your valuable input, I'll not neck turn. I don't own a cartridge concentricity measuring unit. Sounds like it makes no sense for me to get one because without neck turning there is no way for me to improve loaded cartridge concentricity, is this true?
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Post by keith on Feb 20, 2016 18:53:59 GMT -5
Turning necks will not necessarily improve concentricity. The trick is knowing what to do and what not to do and when: like neck turning, neck sizing, etc that have places in some guns but not others. What makes you think you have a problem that needs fixed?
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Post by mike on Feb 20, 2016 22:12:46 GMT -5
Keith, looking for the elusive one hole five shot groups at 200 yards. lol Just thought that consistent neck wall thickness (.0001") and .0001" bullet to case concentricity will give me the best chance at the elusive one hole group. From what you guys said, I now know that I must have a special chamber cut to allow me to optimize my reloads with neck turning. I just finished bedding the picatiny scope rails and lapping the scope rings on my Hankins SPML-45 and Kelbly Atlas .22-250. Mounted a new Leupold VX-6 7-42x56 on the Hankins and a VX-6 4-24x52 on the Kelbly. I have fire formed and neck-sized brass reloads for the Kelbly. I will get to the range later this coming week and then will know where I stand in my search for the one-hole groups. I'll provide a range report.
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Post by keith on Feb 22, 2016 10:59:10 GMT -5
Keith, looking for the elusive one hole five shot groups at 200 yards. lol Me too. I personally think prepping brass and good ladder work is the key to consistent low spreads and little groups. Appropriate sizing is the key to good function. One of the better reads on the subject is Zediker's "Loading for Competition "; covers accuracy and appropriate function.
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Post by mike on Feb 24, 2016 0:48:32 GMT -5
Thanks Keith, I appreciate the book recommendation.
I previously bought the third edition of "Applied Ballistics For Long-Range Shooting" authored by Bryan Litz. Lots of interesting information, but not a good resource for precision reloading.
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Post by keith on Feb 24, 2016 7:14:25 GMT -5
Bryan writes great stuff for understanding your gun, how physics affects a bullet, and being realistic in your expectations. You won't get much on loading. Tim told me his new DVD is great but I'm not sure he covers any loading on it either.
Zediker's writes great books on loading and AR match rifles. His style kills some people because it's colloquial at times. He's an English Literature major and he knows he is doing it. He acknowledges it in the Foreward. Still, it's probably the very best loading book I've read.
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Post by markb317 on Feb 25, 2016 7:56:24 GMT -5
You might consider getting your brass annealed every couple of firings to keep the neck tension consistent. This will help with getting your groups to shrink in size.
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Post by keith on Feb 25, 2016 16:54:44 GMT -5
I do every fourth firing for normal pressure loads and every two firings for hot loads.
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Post by mike on Feb 25, 2016 22:49:25 GMT -5
You might consider getting your brass annealed every couple of firings to keep the neck tension consistent. This will help with getting your groups to shrink in size. Thanks markb317 and Keith,
I've never done this before for any of my brass. I watched a YouTube video describing how to anneal brass and it doesn't seem too difficult as long as one doesn't overheat the brass. I'll give this a try. If nothing else it should provide longer case life.
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Post by keith on Feb 26, 2016 7:14:04 GMT -5
If you don't want to do it yourself I know a guy (disabled so does this to plus up income) that preps brass cheaply.
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Post by mike on Feb 26, 2016 8:52:13 GMT -5
If you don't want to do it yourself I know a guy (disabled so does this to plus up income) that preps brass cheaply. Thanks Keith, I'll keep this in mind.
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