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Post by Richard on Feb 9, 2016 20:59:25 GMT -5
Explanation to follow: Temperature today was 32* and overcast……….felt like it wanted to snow. Wind was not bad up until about 9:30 when the pine trees started moving pretty good and the Indian grass on the berm’s started to lean from left to right. About the time I was getting ready to move out to 300 yards. Starting with a clean barrel and a new .035” bushing in my Arrowhead BP -27 ½” Brux .45 cal barrel I wanted to see if I got the same misfire as I did last week with the following load: 300 gr. Sierra flat nose bullet with a .060” veggie wad and a 10/60----N-110/H-4198 duplex. Last weed I had the .028” bushing and a Win 209 primer. With the misfire, I had to reseat the bullet and the mixed duplex load and put on a CCI 209M primer to get ignition. So this week with the .035” bushing and a Fed. 209A primer I got ignition with the velocity in the right ball park. I continued to fire two more with that combo and primer with speeds pretty close and those first three shots in 1.3”—No not great but they did group………But, as has been my problem in the past with magnum primers………..everyone one stuck and had to be re-struck to remove from bolt. With one last 300 gr. Sierra, I put in a Win. 209 primer and the velocity remained the same and the primer did not stick! Yes, the shot struck a little higher but heck, it was nothing but a pistol bullet? Actually all four shots only had a 15 fps ES----------3 Fed. And 1 Win. primers. For group #2 I used a 300 gr. SST (unlike the FTX’s these bullets have a very rounded base) which I milled the base flat. The bullet now weighting 294 gr.; so here I start with a single charge of 72 gr. IMR-4198 and a Fed. primer. First shot? No problem…….2699 fps.(sticky primer) Second shot………….almost NOTHING? Primer ignited, did not stick but looked at the chronograph and…………..157 fps? Did that ever cause a lot of WTF’ing? Then I looked down at my loading bench and saw a bullet laying there all by itself………Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Put in the powder and wad and no bullet. Since these bullets go down so easy, I did not feel the difference so the primer bushed the wad out and across the chronograph at 157 fps. Moving right along………..! Shots 2 and 3 went off OK but here again velocity was not consistent and the primers were sticking so for shot 4 and 5 I switched back to the Winchesters……….but, on shot #5 it went off a a measly 1857 fps with a lot of fire coming out the bore; here again a sign that the Winchester primer did not fully ignite the loose fitting bullet. As a result, that bullet opened the group up by four inches. At this point, I scrapped the Federal primers and the single powder charges and went to what works for my gun. For group #3 I used one of my hollow based 274 gr. SST’s with no wad and a 12/58 Clays/H-4198 duplex. I was rewarded with a .412” three shot group! The ES was somewhat acceptable at 32 fps. Group #4 was the same load but using a wad and ended up with a .762” group and a 15 fps ES. For group #5 I moved my scope from a Zero setting used for the 100 yard groups to 3 ¼ MOA. I tried to duplicate the .9” three shot group I shot last week with the 250 BE and 10/60—Clays/H-4198 but due to the wind, that was not going to happen. The best I got was 1.8” for three in a row, 2.8 for four and five for five! You can see how they drifted to the right……just the way the wind was blowing. Without having a series of wind flags, you do not know when the wind blows and when it ebbs. Moving on to the last group I went with the 274 gr. hollow base SST and the 12/58 duplex with a wad. My first shot was at an adjacent steel 9” wide silhouette which I missed to the right. Of the five shots on the target the best (not three in a row) three measured 1.2” which gave me a good idea of how the load was shooting when the same wind condition existed. All six shots had an ES of 56 but five of the six came in at 31. Well, so much for the .035 bushing solving my situation? The thing is, it does not really bother me since I am comfortable with shooting duplex loads and getting good results. The one question that bothers me is why the 209A and the CCI mag primers want to stick while the Winchester 209’s do not? Next week I should have 50 of Kyle’s 300 AccuMax gems in my grubby little hands and I will give them a try.  free screen capture upload image online |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 21:59:00 GMT -5
Nice report Richard. Wash your hands.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 23:14:36 GMT -5
Richard, I am on the same trail as you. I am building a Savage centerfire conversion with one of my Pac-nor barrels to be used as a heavy duty hunting ML. I have put a shoulder in the Savage breechplug at .225 deep and headspaced for a crush fit into that shoulder. This will allow maximum primer penetration into the breechplug. I am going to start with a .040 bushing and F209 primers. The plan is to try single powder loads like you did and I will report my findings.
I firmly believe the reason for your sticky primers is the fact that the primer is not locked in place between the bolt face and a shoulder in the plug. I was the first to build a centerfire conversion incorporating a plug with a shoulder a couple of years ago. I have never had a sticky primer in that gun period, even with some pretty hot loads. Everyone who had built them at that time had sticky primers.
The plug that you are using, as delivered, does not have a shoulder at a usable depth. The winchester primer has a step in the OD and tends to fit tighter than the F209, making the F209 stick easier. I would wager that if you machined and installed a shim/shoulder in your plug that captures the primer, your sticky primer situation would cease to exist.
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Feb 10, 2016 10:35:39 GMT -5
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Post by linebaugh on Feb 10, 2016 10:35:39 GMT -5
You are going to need a faster booster to get that veggie wad to a speed where you can test groups with it at 100yrds. I just don't think it will carry that far at 150fps.
Just giving you guff. Thanks for posting again... It gives us something more to read about in our weekly installment of the "Richard Files."
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Post by schunter on Feb 10, 2016 11:48:47 GMT -5
Very interesting Richard. I would have thought you would have better results with the singles with the .035 bushing. Nothing wrong with those duplex groups! Thanks for the report...
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Post by Richard on Feb 10, 2016 13:47:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the insight Scat..................but would you not think that the primer would also move out of the Winchester primer and wedge against the bolt face?
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Post by Richard on Feb 10, 2016 15:03:57 GMT -5
OK, so based on what Scat wrote, I retired to the basement shop and did some measuring and checking. The best I could come up with is this: The Win. 209 primer is .005" longer than the CCI 209M (at least the ones I have? This would account for more slop in trying to get a crush fit on the primer. I also noted that the actual primer sits somewhat recessed in the cup by a few thousandths, which also creates more head space. So, short of shimming the bottom recess in the plug so the CCI's will bottom out, I can just stay with the Winchesters and duplex as I have been doing for years? If I bush it, then I am stuck with using the CCI's (don't have any Federals as I had borrowed some from Herman the other day) all the time unless I remove the shim? Since I am not seeing a whole lot of bug holes being consistently shot with the other various ignition systems, primers and single powders, I think I will just duplex until such time as I am forced to make a change.  |
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Post by hillbill on Feb 10, 2016 19:16:50 GMT -5
here is the fix Richard.
clean your primer pocket well and get a good depth measurement, mix up some JB quick weld and when it starts to thicken stick a small dab in your primer pocket, put a Fed 209 that has release agent on it in your bolt, seat it and let it set up for 30 minutes, remove the primer and plug and again take a good measurement on the primer pocket depth. you now have what depth bushing you need. after measuring you can drill it out easily and clean up the plug.
head spacing on the primer nose is the only way to seal FEDs or CCIs, they simply are not round.
you can make yourself a bushing from SS and install in the pocket and the sticking problem is solved, no longer any room for the cup to back out of the primer body and you have a perfect seal on the nose while making use of the hotter primers. IT WORKS! Been there..
I realize you have Winchesters but the hotter primers work better without a doubt, if you need some Feds or CCIs I can bring you some at the shoot, I have plenty.. |
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Post by elkman1310 on Feb 10, 2016 19:20:21 GMT -5
Your Mag primers are sticking because you don't have your breech plug head spaced properly. Your primer pocket is to deep for your setup. The Win 209 doesn't stick because it is a lot milder that the CCI 209 and the Fed 209A. You need to measure how much of primer sticks out above your bolt face, The Savage bolt nose only lets the primer stick out about .190 because of the thickness of the bolt nose. I have milled the face of that bolt nose back to get at least .210 or more.
The same goes for the Hunter bolt nose and Luke's plug if the primer pocket is cut to deep the primers will bulge out enough that they will require a second strike. Let me be clear just because you screw your barrel in far enough that you feel it touch the breech plug ( Does not mean you have the correct head space on the primer) If everything is setup correctly there is absolutely no need to duplex to get proper ignition and great accuracy. My guns do it all the time with standard loads of 70 to 73 grs of IMR 4198. I keep telling Richard that I shoot 3 shot groups that measure .300 to .400 all the time when I test the guns I build So I am just passing this info along.
I don't want to insult anybody but this is where good machine work comes into play. You simply can't expect a breech plug to fit really good unless you hand fit it. And this must been done when you setup a new barrel in the lathe and head space the primer just like a cartridge. Step (1) check the depth of your primer pocket in the plug you want to use. Step (2) check to see how much of your primer sticks out in front of the bolt nose with the primer in the slot. If your primer sticks out .200 and your primer pocket is .230 its way to deep. You will need to face off the breech plug so that the pocket is no more than .005 deeper than your primer. Step (3) install the breech plug in the barrel and without the firing pin assembly in the bolt cut the depth of the plug so that you just have the bolt close on the face new plug just like chambering a rifle. If you do all this correctly you can shoot Federal 209A primers all day long and they will not stick. I use a .240 chucking reamer for the primer pocket. This gives you a nice snug fit and it works great. I hope this post helps someone!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2016 19:33:16 GMT -5
here is the fix Richard.
clean your primer pocket well and get a good depth measurement, mix up some JB quick weld and when it starts to thicken stick a small dab in your primer pocket, put a Fed 209 that has release agent on it in your bolt, seat it and let it set up for 30 minutes, remove the primer and plug and again take a good measurement on the primer pocket depth. you now have what depth bushing you need. after measuring you can drill it out easily and clean up the plug.
head spacing on the primer nose is the only way to seal FEDs or CCIs, they simply are not round.
you can make yourself a bushing from SS and install in the pocket and the sticking problem is solved, no longer any room for the cup to back out of the primer body and you have a perfect seal on the nose while making use of the hotter primers. IT WORKS! Been there..
I realize you have Winchesters but the hotter primers work better without a doubt, if you need some Feds or CCIs I can bring you some at the shoot, I have plenty.. Bill I agree. If you sandwich the primer between the bolt face and the plug shoulder, the primer cannot move period. That is an interesting method you devised with the jb weld. If the plug has a shelf in it, I just back the plug out 1/4 turn at a time until resistance is met when locking into battery. Then just multiply the number of turns of the plug by the thread pitch distance per turn and that will be how much shallower the shelf needs to be. Like Elkman says, it is imperative that the primer be headspaced solidly into a shoulder which will eliminate sticky primers. Also, .005" difference in length isn't going to be a deal breaker either. It takes more than .005" of primer stickout to stick the primer in the bolt face. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2016 19:35:32 GMT -5
Thanks for the insight Scat..................but would you not think that the primer would also move out of the Winchester primer and wedge against the bolt face? Richard I think that you are right on the edge of that happening. One difference is that the winchester primer is larger in diameter, causing it to fit the plug tighter. |
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Post by jims on Feb 10, 2016 22:20:06 GMT -5
Quite interesting.
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Post by elkman1310 on Feb 11, 2016 8:01:35 GMT -5
The JB method or even silver solder would be a quick fix. But that is what it is a repair to correct poor planning. The Winchester primer is fatter as was pointed out and that is probably the only thing saving you right know.
I have tested a lot of different depths on my breech plugs and you can get a Mag primer to stick pretty quick if you have the pocket a few thousands to deep and the head of the primer not held tight against the bolt face. That's way I make my own plugs and bolt noses I have total control over the problem when I do all the machining.
I would never build a gun and sell it to anyone with JB Weld in the primer pocket or any shims that is not the way to keep customers.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2016 12:50:47 GMT -5
The JB method or even silver solder would be a quick fix. But that is what it is a repair to correct poor planning. The Winchester primer is fatter as was pointed out and that is probably the only thing saving you right know. I have tested a lot of different depths on my breech plugs and you can get a Mag primer to stick pretty quick if you have the pocket a few thousands to deep and the head of the primer not held tight against the bolt face. That's way I make my own plugs and bolt noses I have total control over the problem when I do all the machining. I would never build a gun and sell it to anyone with JB Weld in the primer pocket or any shims that is not the way to keep customers. Elkman, While I agree with most of your ideals, I think you misunderstood some previous fix's by other folks. The JB weld that Bill mentioned is NOT a fix. It is a measurement method to be used in determining thickness for making a steel shim for the primer pocket. As for shimming a primer pocket, it has worked well on the several hundreds if not thousands of guns that Slufoot has converted. Is it the BEST way, NO. However, when a gun is already built/bedded, there are only 2 options. 1)shim the primer pocket, 2) machine a new plug. #2 is the best option but most folks do not have the equipment to complete such a task. I work in a multi-craft maintenance role where I have access to a machine shop. I have everything at my disposal to make the entire ignition system except the heat treat oven. So, option 1 is the alternative. I make my shims custom for each plug. I do not add shims until the desired primer depth is reached. I make a custom shim for each plug that is rifle specific, and a very tight press fit. I built the first centerfire conversion with a shelf in the BP 2 years ago. Most everyone building them on a 209 since then have incorporated a shelf in the BP. I can't for the life of me understand why people still advocate that it is not needed. Another supplier sells shims in different thicknesses so their must be a call for them. We need to accept it as standard practice and move on. |
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Post by Richard on Feb 11, 2016 13:01:03 GMT -5
OK, so I just got on the computer and have worked on a fix prior to reading what everyone has written. First of all, with the firing pin removed I took a reading of the gap between the bolt handle and the receiver. I found that I could move the bolt horizontally in and out (with the bolt handle closed) .008" as indicated by feeler gauges. My bad when setting up the gun initially. I normally do this with CF builds (remove the firing pin AND the ejector) so I get a good feel for the head space. Next, I had two choices: shim the BP to get it in contact with the bolt nose or remove the barrel and cut the shoulder back .008". So, taking the easier route (temporarily) I created a shim from aluminum flashing which happened to be .008". I created a ring, so to speak, that had to be threaded onto the bolt nose so it made full contact on the shoulder. When assembled I can just slightly feel the bolt nose now contacting the BP. I tried a CCI 209M and it fired and did not stick. Now will this work with a normal load? Idunno? But it should help. I want to try it before any more tinkering. And, I appreciate all the feed back. After testing for fit and firing, I epoxied the shim to the BP and locked it in place.  image sharing free image hosting |
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Feb 11, 2016 13:11:49 GMT -5
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Post by linebaugh on Feb 11, 2016 13:11:49 GMT -5
Nice work and good feedback from everyone. Just a thought on your dry firing test. I have had more problems with primer set back shooting both muzzy and cartridge guns with just primers than I have with full loads. I only say this to point out that you may have the bulk of your problem fixed now.
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Post by Richard on Feb 11, 2016 14:03:57 GMT -5
I was kind of thinking the same thing. Sticky primers when dry firing in the past had always been a issue but generally rectified itself with full loads having the pressure to re-seat the primer. So it was encouraging to have the primer come off with no problem. If the shim thing works out, I might just leave it that way as moving the shoulder back with change where I have barrel information etched.
Definitely a lot of good ideas. I know Elkman is a heck of a machinist and smart guy. He even offered to rectify the problem on my gun at no charge (other than shipping) which is a heck of a deal. Now that I am getting a handle on the cause I should be able to do what needs to be done without imposing on his generosity!
Thanks also Bill on that great idea!
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Post by Richard on Feb 11, 2016 20:03:33 GMT -5
I just had a conversation with Elkman and got his blessing on my procedure. A fact that I was aware of but he also reminded me was in relation to the screw that holds and cams the Remington ML bolts. If it wears, it will increase head space. I always recommend people I do builds for, to keep that channel lubricated to prevent wear on that screw.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Feb 11, 2016 22:22:58 GMT -5
They sell a smaller OD shim like Luke sells. Use them to find out how many regular shims are needed first. They can be installed in the primer pocket and then removed fairly easily.
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Post by Richard on Feb 11, 2016 23:14:15 GMT -5
I saw them and they would work for sealing and I am not sure yet that I might need one. In my case, the bolt nose was not reaching the BP by .008". The shim I made closed that gap to about .000" putting that much more primer inside the plug giving more support and less area to bulge. Hillbill's fix would better tell me if in fact, the primer is bottoming out. What I did will give me the maximum insertion possible but,this may not be enough to bottom out the primer; in which case a shim in the BP pocket would be needed.
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