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Post by keith on Jan 15, 2016 18:04:39 GMT -5
I mentioned it to Rob today when we were talking about having to shoot off a truck hood to get high enough to have line of sight on a powerline right of way but I feel like shooting from the bench is causing me some recoil anticipation lately. It hasn't affected my shooting yet but I can feel this lingering sensation (not sure how to describe it) as I'm going through my breathing cycle and getting ready to break the shot. I never feel this way when shooting alts or from the ground (although I am usually not shooting an SML) practicing for matches. I left my BR gear at the house today and took my bipod out on the SML today. Prone from the bipod, I shot really well and managed the recoil in a way that made that little nagging feeling go away during trigger control.
Does anyone else ever struggle with this? I know it happens to shotgunners but our guns kick and I shoot a LOT.
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Post by hillbill on Jan 15, 2016 18:11:29 GMT -5
I will put on my big boy pants and admit that yes, I struggle with it as well. most do If they admit it or not? I catch myself doing the same thing with my Land Cannons as I do with my bow, target panic? Maybe, it takes some practice and concentration to get it worked out of my system. will I ever get myself trained? At 56 I doubt it. Its all down hill from here..
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Post by jaymiller5 on Jan 15, 2016 18:12:02 GMT -5
With time i think we all deal with it. It Happens even in archery competitors and is called target panic.
For guns I dry fire often, shoot low recoil rifles a couple times a week and break up my firing position like you are doing.
In Archery, i blank bail shoot at 3 yards and work on form and mechanics of the shot process.
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Post by keith on Jan 15, 2016 18:18:55 GMT -5
I was curious because I haven't dealt with it since I worked at the gunshop and shot hundreds of guns a year for sight in services where I endured a lot of recoil whether poor stocks design, metal butt plates, or lightweight magnums. However, since I have started this SML thing (right at 4years now I think) I have started dealing with it again. Prior to that I had rid my life of recoil through smarter cartridges selection or the use of suppressors. I'm glad to know I'm not alone in this.
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Post by tnhunter54 on Jan 15, 2016 18:23:26 GMT -5
I think we all have some form of it to so degree.
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Post by 247deer on Jan 15, 2016 19:58:08 GMT -5
I had target panic so bad with a bow I could only shoot a deer walking if it stood still I could not put the pin on it.It was bad but I have never had a problem with a gun knock on wood
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gar
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Post by gar on Jan 15, 2016 20:07:34 GMT -5
Yes to a degree I think we have had it. On a bench the sight is so still it seems like you can't miss but then anticipation of the break and there it goes.
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Post by keith on Jan 15, 2016 20:26:00 GMT -5
I think mine is 100% recoil driven; I never notice it when I'm shooting a metallic gun. I keep all my expended primers in a bag so that I can get a count of how much I have shot. On January 1st I had 802 Large Rifle and Large Rifle Magnum primers in that bag (calculated by weight and does not account for what I shoot at work) and I would bet the last 4 months have been 90% SML work and 10% metallic. I'm pretty sure mine is becoming an SML association but changing to ground work seems to have fixed it today. We will see how it pans out in the long run.
I'm sure it can happen with archery too but I shoot trad gear and have never suffered from it. It's all too fluid for me to have panic.
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Post by linebaugh on Jan 15, 2016 20:52:01 GMT -5
Happens to most all of us I bet. Between recoil and muzzle blast it's kind of a head game for me. A couple things that are different for me. I can stay on target on 3-d type targets like pop cans or dirt clods far easier than a flat target. Also on game I can focus well.
On a similar note. Everyone hates my shooting bench because it's too high. In my opinion if you are tired of eating recoil it's nice to get upright and let the rifle push you back rather than you not moving and eating all that recoil. That is why my bench is taller and lets the shooter sit upright.
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Post by Richard on Jan 15, 2016 21:12:07 GMT -5
Keith...........you seem to have an aversion to something like the Lead Sled? For several years I had been shooting my Savage .50 with just a good recoil pad and a PAST Magnum shoulder protector............then I had rotator cuff surgery on my shooting shoulder and it was either wait six months to shoot or borrow Bill's lead sled? I opted for the sled. Being a bench rest shooter I knew the value of the gun having to recoil smoothly and the sled did not do that! So, I redesigned it and made a platform for it to ride on. Right now, my modified sled with 16 lbs. of lead shot in a leather bag and my 14 lb. SML (the sled weights 24 lbs) makes my rig right at 54 lbs.. The front rubber feet ride on aluminum tracks which I keep grease on and the rear foot has a smooth surface added to it and it rides on a nylon track. The rifle recoils only about an inch. The set up mimic's my 1K heavy gun in recoil. At the end of a 30 to 40 shot ML session I go home feeling NO pain and NO scope rings on my forehead! When it comes time to go hunting, then switch to that type of set up to get your zero's and the feel. But for range/load/bullet testing you can avoid what you are talking about.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 21:17:56 GMT -5
I don't own a leadsled or muzzle break, so after around 20 un breaked shots I've had enough and the anticipated recoil sets in and trigger jerking follows....I'm hoping with my new gun being heavier and muzzlebroke it will give me more shots for load development and tuning....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 21:31:59 GMT -5
I don't own a leadsled or muzzle break, so after around 20 un breaked shots I've had enough and the anticipated recoil sets in and trigger jerking follows....I'm hoping with my new gun being heavier and muzzlebroke it will give me more shots for load development and tuning.... Muzzlebroke....I love it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 21:41:40 GMT -5
Its like after you break a horse....its BROKE then,lol.....
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Post by jims on Jan 15, 2016 21:45:17 GMT -5
I have had it the worst with high counts of shots in trap shooting. The sled helps off the bench with rifles for me. I have heard where some build target "benches" one stands behind and this helps eliminate the problem. I just read in the latest Sports Illustrated a similar issue with golfers having a hard time with their swing and no recoil there. I guess a combination of many factors. My daughter got scope eye once and I hated that, she is still recoil conscious 4 years later. If anyone comes up with a "cure" I am all for it. A good question posted here.
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Post by keith on Jan 15, 2016 22:32:08 GMT -5
Rich,
Honestly, I don't like shooting from a bench at all. I can do it well but don't see a reason to. I'm a rifleman and except for testing optics or load development I try to stay away from the bench. I've only been back at it to test these bullets. If I'm on the range to train I only shoot prone to confirm zero and long range drops then the rest is alts.
I shoot a Sinclair rest and have never been able to warm up to the lead sled. I've seen guys make it work with success but I can't. For me I think the issue is the way heavy recoil moves you at the bench vice how you take it from the prone. You don't manage recoil from the bench, it manages you.
I've never enjoyed big guns but I like the challenge of making them shoot. I'm shooting heavy bullets with slow powders so I've got a lot more ejecta than a guy shooting 78gn and a 275gn bullet. I think getting off the bench and back in control of the recoil was the solution.
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Post by fishhawk on Jan 16, 2016 8:59:16 GMT -5
I have found that many benches have too high of a seat causing me to be hunched over. this position rolls my shoulder over to the point that the recoil is concentrated to the base of my collar bone which quickly gets painful. Shorter seat (if possible), or raising to gun and elbows higher on the bench with wood slabs eases the pain greatly. Second thing I've noticed is from shooting big pistols, and sml's with brakes is reaction to muzzle blast. The concussion wears on your nerves after a few shots. I will wear earplugs and headphones to slow the onset of the "shakes". I've also had the thought of wearing sunglasses to dull the muzzle flash on darker days, My .460 XVR and .416 sml have big fireballs when the light is low. I believe all these can effect trigger pulling.
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Post by hawghunter on Jan 16, 2016 9:28:50 GMT -5
I mentioned it to Rob today when we were talking about having to shoot off a truck hood to get high enough to have line of sight on a powerline right of way but I feel like shooting from the bench is causing me some recoil anticipation lately. It hasn't affected my shooting yet but I can feel this lingering sensation (not sure how to describe it) as I'm going through my breathing cycle and getting ready to break the shot. I never feel this way when shooting alts or from the ground (although I am usually not shooting an SML) practicing for matches. I left my BR gear at the house today and took my bipod out on the SML today. Prone from the bipod, I shot really well and managed the recoil in a way that made that little nagging feeling go away during trigger control. Does anyone else ever struggle with this? I know it happens to shotgunners but our guns kick and I shoot a LOT. When I start to get the same sensation the 22 comes out along with a brick of shells. A walk in the woods shooting at different objects is the ticket for me. I shoot offhanded until the panic sensation subsides. Off season air rifle shooting at objects instead at paper seems to help too. It might be a leaf, pine cone, stick or stump or red squirrel it really doesn't matter but it seems to reduce the anxiety when squeezing the trigger.
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Post by dannoboone on Jan 16, 2016 12:07:10 GMT -5
I've done much the same as Hawghunter, but do it at the bench until that "feeling" subsides, usually with the 17hmr and or Tactical 20.
I also have the Zero Kick Shooting Rest and like the much more natural feeling it has over the Lead Sled. Unfortunately, they are no longer in production, probably because the strap does wear out.
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Post by shane on Jan 17, 2016 0:59:21 GMT -5
Target Panic is the Real Deal. Its all about range time and muscle memory And then just holding it all together at the moment Of truth. I know a few guys that must have Ice Water Running Thru their veins!!!! They never miss a Big Buck or Turkey, ect..... But they also dont seem to show as much emotion As i do, when they are successful. Makes me wonder if they love it as much as i do?
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beans
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Post by beans on Jan 17, 2016 8:18:58 GMT -5
None of our hunting group of guys have ever had training or been competitive. However, we are all very good shots off the bench and in the field. I am not sure that the advise I have is legit or not because it's only my opinion and nothing "mainstream". 1) you need a comfortable, stable bench with a chair and shooting surface that works for the entire group. The chair is the easiest to adjust by taking some of the cushions from hang'on tree stands and "building up" 2) You need to address recoil reducing. A good recoil pad on the gun is a must. Guys using sleds and breaks/suppressors may like them but I have never tried either. 3) Good eye relief. Any Leupold I have have something like 4" of eye relief. I am sure other scopes can be had with good relief. 4) A good trigger that is set the same as you would like for hunting with a very clean break. If you can have a good bench condition and then secure items 2,3 and 4, you will at least have a base line that starts with minimizing PAIN. When you know you will not be hurt, you can concentrate on trigger control and good squeezing. We have (4) youngsters (early 20's) in camp shooting heavy recoiling ML's. 2 Savages with 70 gr H4198 and 325 FTX;s and (2) knight Disc with same bullet and 90 gr weight Blackhorn. These kids have grown up around us and every one of the guns above are hand-me-downs from us older guys except one of the savages. When these guys were able to begin hunting and shooting, we spent a lot of time with them on how to shoot well. They wanted to shoot at max levels from day one...tough guys like we all were as older boys and young men. I think the biggest thing I did with them was illustrate that they were not squeezing the trigger when they assured me they were. They spent more time trying to tweak loads, sabots and other things and no time on shooting habits when their groups were sub-par. What I did was have them load the gun and then hand it to me for priming. 4 out of 5 times I would put in a spent primer or disc. Sometimes it was the 1st shot and sometimes the last after they had been pounded with several full house loads. It was EYE OPENING for them and they were all big time yankers...LOL. You can practice dry firing all you want and it is good practice. But nothing is better then NOT KNOWING if the gun will go off or just a click. Having an audience adds to the concentration of not wanting to be embarrassed for yanking and wanting to prove that you are squeezing. They are top notch squeezers now. These 4 guys are way better at shooting now then a few years ago and they prove it every year when we shoot at the bench. Now, Keith, you may be suffering from something totally different since you are highly trained and have way more experience then most. However, I thought I would share my thoughts for the masses out there with trigger/recoil issues. Shane, interesting point on guys who kill everything they shoot at and show no emotion. I know that for myself, I am fairly cool headed when it's game time on a nice buck. Yes, excited but very much under control with tunnel vision of what I need to do, where the opening is, and when to execute the shot. BUT, after the shot is off and the deer does a scuffle death run and piles up, I turn into a bowl of jello and usually need a good 10 minutes to feel in control enough to get my stuff together and climb down the tree spikes safely. Especially with a bow when you have all the other considerations of drawing on something close at the right time, holding something under tension for potentially a long time and picking the right moment to release. Whole different topic I guess. Hope you figure things out as it looks like you still have a lot of testing to do. BOMB's away.
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