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Post by mountain444 on Apr 10, 2023 22:29:16 GMT -5
What are your guys processes for load development with blackhorn even if it’s not with a 40 cal. My rifle is a savage large shank Hank’s prefit 26” barrel with HIS ignition. 1-14 twist. Shooting 275 Pittman’s I currently have fire 5 shots out of my rifle to foul it for sizing bullet but that is where I stopped with some questions. Previously I clean my muzzleloader after every outing but now with sizing bullets and having to refoul at every shooting opportunity I’m wondering if I’m missing something so I’m asking for what you guys do as far as fouling the bore. How long you leave it fouled. At what fouling level are you sizing too. And any other info you are willing to share about your process
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Post by ballistic on Apr 11, 2023 6:51:57 GMT -5
1-blackhorn is extremely corrosive. I strive to hunt with a clean barrel and spit/dry patch between shots
2-blackhorn in a .40 can produce very high pressures - enough to blow direct ignition bolts and HIS modules. Be careful -start low.
3-blackhorn that’s unfired is hygroscopic -keep your barrel and ignition sealed with a ballon and a spent primer.
4-blackhorn residue after firing will pull moisture into your barrel if humidity is above 70% -another reason to patch after shooting.
I have seen new barrels ruined from loads that have sat -unfired with blackhorn in them.
I have seen stainless barrels pitted badly after shooting and not cleaned after just a few days.
I went to damp (not wet) seafoam soaked patches to clean between shots and then followed with dry on a loaded barrels that I couldn’t clean between shots. Seafoam seems to make the corrosion of the residue inert.
You should be able to get 3 shots off from a clean to fouled if you don’t clean between shots - your 3rd shot might be hard to get down the barrel.
I size for a 2 finger fit to push down the tube on a clean barrel.
I live in utah where humidity is very low. It does increase during hunting season. If you live and hunt in high humidity beware of the above. Humidity that’s high will accelerate the above. I personally believe that blackhorn is the most corrosive powder of all the blackpowder or substitutes that I have ever used. With all the above I still love what this powder can do for the extra speed it produces and it’s what I use for hunting. JMO
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Post by encore50a on Apr 11, 2023 11:29:39 GMT -5
There must be some crazy differences between a 40cal and the 45's and 50's. If I had to shoot 5 rounds to foul a barrel with BH209, I'd be looking into another barrel. Even back in the day shooting sabots, two rounds and it was dead on. Ballistic, we seem to have a complete 180° difference of opinion on BH, which is ok.  BH is without question the least corrosive of all the black powders and substitutes. I'm NOT saying it won't cause corrosion but, far less than any other propellant. I live in MI and smack dab between two of the Great Lakes, where our humidity is always high. In the past I've fouled SS barrels a couple days before the season opened, loaded the rifle and it remained loaded for 2wks. Never had a single issue with corrosion. IF.... I got caught in a rain storm, I would fire off the round and just load it back up and hunt. Taking a rifle inside to warmth from the cold is bad news.BH is also the least hydroscopic of all the BP and substitutes. #6......... blackhorn209.com/specs/advantages/You can actually get it wet, dry it and it'll fire. If I'm practicing or in competition, I swab between every round with a SLIGHTLY DAMP, not wet, patch of 50/50 Hoppe's and 91% alcohol, followed by a dry patch. When my range day is finished, the rifle is completely cleaned. I size bullets in a clean barrel to load at 9#. Once fouled, the bullets will load around 15# to 18#. I do not shoot sabots of any kind. Quite frankly, even if I shoot SML, my rifle is cleaned at the end of the day. I've never seen a barrel in my lifetime of being around firearms, that went bad from cleaning it.  Good luck with your 40...... |
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Post by ballistic on Apr 11, 2023 14:24:19 GMT -5
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Post by ballistic on Apr 11, 2023 14:48:44 GMT -5
The attached (my pics) are: 1 -blackhorn 209 sitting in an unfired barrel for 2 weeks. The powder had partly turned to a solid and the rest were loose kernels of the round powder with the holes in it. This barrel was ruined. The owner was hunting in a wet environment. I unloaded and found this when working on it. 2- the pic of the muzzlebrake. This was taken a few minutes after firing a large dose of blackhorn in a custom .416. It was foggy and had rained earlier. The fired residue was pulling in the moisture from the air. The barrel had to have a few patches to remove the sludge. www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/11/is-blackhorn-209-really-a-smokeless-powder/amp/Here’s an article that shows some testing on the corrosiveness on blackhorn powder. My findings are inline with this article. However - my stash of this powder is from western powders (first owner of blackhorn). The new owner is hodgden and I’ve found equal amounts of the new powder produce 100-200fps-less speed. It doesn’t help that the SDS sheets have dramatically changed from western to hodgden powders and that “Propietary” is widely used - so who knows what’s inside. I hope encore50,s results and also the claims of non corrosive by the manufactures are true and that I received some bad product- a lot of it. I have my doubts on manufacturers claims but am happy to hear its working for encore50 with no issues. Until then this powder has caught my respect and I intend to keep my bore as dry as possible and not leave it my barrel. Has anyone left a bullet in a speed loader with this power ? I have and over time the bullet will tarnish black just like normal blackpowder. The above is just my experience with this powder and I’ve shot a lot of it - the original older stuff. |
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Post by encore50a on Apr 11, 2023 16:26:52 GMT -5
The after lapping is a great photo and its right at the ignition. So many rifles, regardless of the propellant used, look just like that. The Lothar Walther barrel on the BP Xpress that I had did the exact same thing from shooting T7 pellets (180grs). The BP Xpress was never left uncleaned, and I knew better using T7. I have a photo exactly like the after lapping photo but, with the last upgrade to MS, it synced the wife and my computers and I lost the site. I've shot thousands of rounds of BH and the only rifle barrel that did this was the Lothar Walther using T7 pellets. I think its might  ?? be related to the steel type My Rock Creek has no marks what so ever. Bottom line I guess for all of us, clean, clean, clean that rifle |
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Post by ballistic on Aug 20, 2023 16:36:45 GMT -5
Here’s an update on blackhorn 209. This is pic of a Parker black max .45 cal bullet. It was left in a speed loader tube where the bullet sits on top of the powder. This speed loader was kept in a cool basement over the winter and in a dry environment (utah). The copper tarnished significantly and the sides (pic not shown) have blackened as well.
When the speed loader was dumped with the bullet - the powder looked perfect and weighed 120 grains from 8 months ago.
I don’t recommend leaving this powder in your barrel for extended periods of time. The 5 lb jug of powder in pic is from the earlier years of production. Hopefully the newer powder is better.
Pic is coming soon.
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Post by buckeye68 on Aug 20, 2023 16:40:08 GMT -5
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Post by ballistic on Aug 20, 2023 16:44:01 GMT -5
Thanks for posting the pic for me. Just trying to communicate that this powder can tarnish and pit copper - so your barrel may or may not do better. |
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Post by ballistic on Dec 3, 2023 14:10:54 GMT -5
Here’s a few pics using some large doses of (blackhorn 209) powder that would normally be fine in a .45 muzzy. But in a .40 the pressure curve changes dramatically. Yes that’s the head off a direct ignition breechplug and the shooter backed off the powder charge 15 grains from the charge used in the module. This muzzy was built with a 1.25” shank and luckily there wasn’t an injury. After getting the stuck and broken plug removed from the barrel - it was put back together and everything is fine. Anyway - pressure is a crazy animal that can be found by adding a few grains of powder and there it is. And be extra cautious with blackhorn 209 powder in any muzzleloader with smaller calibers generating more pressure.  [/ |
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Post by encore50a on Dec 3, 2023 15:07:44 GMT -5
Here’s a few pics using some large doses of (blackhorn 209) powder that would normally be fine in a .45 muzzy. But in a .40 the pressure curve changes dramatically. Yes that’s the head off a direct ignition breechplug and the shooter backed off the powder charge 15 grains from the charge used in the module. This muzzy was built with a 1.25” shank and luckily there wasn’t an injury. After getting the stuck and broken plug removed from the barrel - it was put back together and everything is fine. Anyway - pressure is a crazy animal that can be found by adding a few grains of powder and there it is. And be extra cautious with blackhorn 209 powder in any muzzleloader with smaller calibers generating more pressure. [/How many grains of BH was shot with both??? |
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Post by ballistic on Dec 3, 2023 15:27:21 GMT -5
Here’s a few pics using some large doses of (blackhorn 209) powder that would normally be fine in a .45 muzzy. But in a .40 the pressure curve changes dramatically. Yes that’s the head off a direct ignition breechplug and the shooter backed off the powder charge 15 grains from the charge used in the module. This muzzy was built with a 1.25” shank and luckily there wasn’t an injury. After getting the stuck and broken plug removed from the barrel - it was put back together and everything is fine. Anyway - pressure is a crazy animal that can be found by adding a few grains of powder and there it is. And be extra cautious with blackhorn 209 powder in any muzzleloader with smaller calibers generating more pressure. [/How many grains of BH was shot with both??? 120 by weight on the modules (per the shooter) 15 grains less on the direct (per the shooter) Heavy 325 grain bullets. I have seen pressure signs w my personal .40 with a powder chamber with 110 grains using direct. Every gun and even the powder (lot to lot) will yield different results. |
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Post by encore50a on Dec 3, 2023 16:39:50 GMT -5
How many grains of BH was shot with both??? 120 by weight on the modules (per the shooter) 15 grains less on the direct (per the shooter) Heavy 325 grain bullets. I have seen pressure signs w my personal .40 with a powder chamber with 110 grains using direct. Every gun and even the powder (lot to lot) will yield different results. Thank you for the information. A couple of the shooters this year at Camp Atterbury, where we're shooting 1,000yds, were shooting 40's and BH. However we are ALL limited to 120grs VOLUME of BH, and depending on lot#, that can vary from as low as 78grs weight, to as high as 100grs by weight. They had no pressure issues shooting 307gr bullets for either of them. Quite frankly, they kicked our 45's ask. However I did take 3rd. I'm sending 350gr bullets using 100grs weight of BH, but out of a 45. With the same charge, also have shot the Fury 400gr ST and the Northern Precision 400gr. No pressure issues. I'm well versed in BH209, but not at all in a 40cal. |
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Post by ballistic on Dec 3, 2023 18:02:03 GMT -5
I have about 2000+ rounds on a .416 full formed w blackhorn. . I blew some modules, gas cut tungten bushings and bulged direct ignition bolts. The .408 is pretty close w results so far.
With enough of it in a .45 (with a long barrel) I’ve had pressure as well- it just takes a lot more powder to do it.
I haven’t blown a head off a breechplug (yet) but I’ve bulged a few barrels.
Good job on placing 3rd
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Post by buckeye68 on Dec 3, 2023 20:30:49 GMT -5
120 by weight on the modules (per the shooter) 15 grains less on the direct (per the shooter) Heavy 325 grain bullets. I have seen pressure signs w my personal .40 with a powder chamber with 110 grains using direct. Every gun and even the powder (lot to lot) will yield different results. Thank you for the information. A couple of the shooters this year at Camp Atterbury, where we're shooting 1,000yds, were shooting 40's and BH. However we are ALL limited to 120grs VOLUME of BH, and depending on lot#, that can vary from as low as 78grs weight, to as high as 100grs by weight. They had no pressure issues shooting 307gr bullets for either of them. Quite frankly, they kicked our 45's ask. However I did take 3rd. Did you post the results from the shoot? Sorry if I missed it but congratulations the your 3rd place! |
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Post by encore50a on Dec 3, 2023 21:47:12 GMT -5
Thank you for the information. A couple of the shooters this year at Camp Atterbury, where we're shooting 1,000yds, were shooting 40's and BH. However we are ALL limited to 120grs VOLUME of BH, and depending on lot#, that can vary from as low as 78grs weight, to as high as 100grs by weight. They had no pressure issues shooting 307gr bullets for either of them. Quite frankly, they kicked our 45's ask. However I did take 3rd. Did you post the results from the shoot? Sorry if I missed it but congratulations the your 3rd place! Thank you. Starting with the inaugural match in June of 2022, I took 1st place, B. Wetzler 2nd and J. Fisk 3rd. I was in the hospital and unable to attend the September of 2022 match, and B. Wetzler took 1st. June of 2023, J. Fisk 1st place (40cal) I took 2nd and C. Kenny took 3rd. September of 2023, D. Swartz 1st place (40cal), J. Fisk 2nd place (40cal) and I took 3rd. All relays are timed at 30 minutes. Sighters are allowed with 10 rounds for score. You have to move right along The matches in June are relays at 800yds, 900yds and 1,000yds on Saturday and 2 additional relays at 1000yds on Sunday. The matches in September are 5 relays, all at 1,000yds. Three on Saturday and 2 on Sunday. The matches are shot from the prone position and off cross sticks, no rear support, no brakes. 120grs VOLUME is the maximum allowed of BH209. We shoot with the BPCR and BP shooters but in our own classification of Modern Inline. |
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BH is without question the least corrosive of all the black powders and substitutes. I'm NOT saying it won't cause corrosion but, far less than any other propellant. I live in MI and smack dab between two of the Great Lakes, where our humidity is always high. In the past I've fouled SS barrels a couple days before the season opened, loaded the rifle and it remained loaded for 2wks. Never had a single issue with corrosion. IF.... I got caught in a rain storm, I would fire off the round and just load it back up and hunt. Taking a rifle inside to warmth from the cold is bad news.
?? be related to the steel type 
