|
Post by tar12 on Feb 4, 2023 7:17:23 GMT -5
What are the differences? Pro and cons? I was always intrigued by the Swinglock die but never pursued it...
|
|
|
Post by jims on Feb 4, 2023 9:03:11 GMT -5
The full form generally uses a cut off drop from your barrel. When one forms with that the rifling impresses on the bullet in effect. In theory it would seem to be the way to go but it is more work I think and has shown me no more accuracy. In smooth form the bullet is just sized down enough that it fits the bore snug enough to seal and obturate quickly. I like it better for my purposes and it seems most use this method now. Richard, sew and a number of others can give their input. I believe Hank also recommends that method with his rifles. Back to a front stuffer I see. Probably 15 years ago or more I had a .40 PacNor barrel on my Sav MLII. I did not have a sizing die then and had to try to find .40 bullets that would still slide down the barrel and yet seal well enough to ignite the powder and shoot accurately. Used 200 SSTs then and 195 Barnes knurled. Sizing dies later open up the use of a larger variety of bullets as I could form them to the exact size I needed rather than hunting for a particular bullet to fit. Ultimately I believe you will best be served smooth forming. Even now I still use sabots on occasion. That may be heresy.
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on Feb 4, 2023 10:08:45 GMT -5
Thanks Jim...my son is actually getting back into the front stuffers....I am helping him out..I might get back into it myself at some point.
|
|
|
Post by ballistic on Feb 4, 2023 10:31:19 GMT -5
Pros of full sizing *Opens the door to use a larger variety of bullets from a bigger list of manufacturers. *Some really heavy high Bc bullets can be found in .408 and .416 (cutting edge have .920 Bc) and some really heavy in .458 as well. *Pure copper and cup and core are available.
Cons of full sizing. *Annealing is needed on many of the bullets *Heavy duty reloading presses are needed for sizing. *A piece of your barrel is needed to make the die. *Big heavy high Bc bullets produce really high recoil *bullets aren’t guaranteed to shoot well just because they have the grooves in them from the press. *bullets must be indexed into the riflings -not easy in low light through a muzzle brake.
Pros of smooth sizing *Pitman/Fury/Alco/Parker/Hammer and more are making bullets for smooth sizing that are a few thousandths over the lands. *Hand sizing presses (Lee) make sizing Simple/easy/portable. •Pitmans variety of light to heavy bullets have amazing high Bc values. The .40 cal 325 (Bc .584) can be shot at much higher velocities than the really heavy full formed bullets that have an edge on Bc. *Easy to tune with videos from jeff with plug and play recipes available *Once sized correctly -easy to load through a muzzle brake -even in low light. *Accuracy edge over full formed -my opinion.
Cons of smooth sizing *Not a lot of options available in pure copper. Knurling is needed to make some of them work. Many hunters prefer copper for hunting -less damage to the animal.
My Opinion Smooth sized heavy for caliber 275 grains pitmans or heavier will be easy to tune and will be lethal enough to drop any mule deer sized animal (and elk as tested) easily and on the spot. The heavier weight bullets (325) will kill elk really well every single time -as tested. I haven’t shot a whitetail -maybe they are tougher ? If you want dependable accuracy from hot to cold weather - you can’t beat the reliability of a smooth formed pitman. I’ve tried all of the other smooth sized brands and the pitmans are just better. Full formed have their place with the wide selection of bullets available. I say available because it’s hard to get what you want these days. Full formed can be more moody to tune accurately with big temp changes -my experience.
I recommend smooth sizing the pitmans and shooting the heaviest rounds you can shoot accurately (for hunting) out in the field. Get off the bench and shoot from field/hunting positions (maybe you hunt from the bench ?) to find your limits. This is just my opinion - hope the above helps.
|
|
|
Post by jims on Feb 4, 2023 12:18:21 GMT -5
Ballistic: Well said.
|
|
|
Post by sew on Feb 4, 2023 12:34:54 GMT -5
Tar, I’m convinced that each has their place. For what I shoot in my light 40 , I prefer full sized. In my heavy 40, I still shoot both 402 (Pittmans) and 4085 P Hammers fullsized. But, as the pressures go up, the quicker the smooth sized obturate and I see no accuracy difference FS to SS at the comparatively high pressures shot by most on this board. With the Scout, do you even have the option to FS?
Again. Like most questions on smokeless MLing, the rifle and it’s end use determine the best answer. Sometimes, it’s a saboted bullet, other times, smooth sized, full sized, some heavier, and slower igniting powder loads do better with LRMPs while my lighter loads actually seem as good or better with LRPs. Wads verses no wads. Annealing, etc..
There is just no “One size fits all”.
|
|
|
Post by Sideshow on Feb 4, 2023 12:47:14 GMT -5
Ballistic Nice job on the overview on the different types of sizing . Good job !!! Jims your input was good too and im glad this came up again . Sew as always excellent stuff . The extra details shared on a topic make a big difference in the quality of the information given . Time , money or development is made shorter and improved results possible for those who truly want to learn from those truly able to teach . Thats Huge !!! Expansion on topics can be very profitable for everyone in this way . Newbies learn and theres satisfaction in leaving the best help possible on the table for both now and the future of muzzleloading . Tar I think that knurling also has its place and purposes in this discussion . Full or smooth sizing can be a bit more than what a die can offer alone . The cup and core bullet can have its obturation characteristics altered considerably through knurl . The expansion of a bullet on game can also be effected considerably when a bullet is a bit tough to expand easier on game . Valueable tools to have . Personally i also like the knurl when temps affect bullet fit and it could use a bit of a tune up when loading to hunt . The knurling of a bullet helps with all these things at times needed . Ive found this especially helpfull on the 40 if not wanting to increase the charge and the resulting velocity increase would then be a bit much for the bullet used . Or less expansion is desired by way of a tougher bullet but obturation needs help . Obturation is enhanced without the extra pressure or velocity for the task . It definately has a place in our bag of tricks if thought about how to use it best .
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Feb 4, 2023 15:11:33 GMT -5
Of course I could repeat what Ballistic has posted but..........I have shot full formed and smooth sized all types of bullets. For me, cup and core bullets like those from Kyle and also Fury.....Yes, Hornady 300 gr. .45 XTP's are a favorite practice bullet with 100 yard accuracy/velocity pretty close to Pittmans, work as well smooth sized as full formed. With that said, leave the 300 XTP's home if your planning on moving out beyond 200 and grab the Pittmans!
|
|
|
Post by sew on Feb 4, 2023 15:20:39 GMT -5
Though I want more….
With any of my 3 40s, I can take a 40 cal SST or 195Bs , knurl them and shoot MOA or better to 200 yards easily. From 2300ish to 3,000+. I try to size to a fouled bore but will often lightly knurl my first full sized bullet if the barrel is cleaner than consistently fouled.
The hotter the loads, the heavier the bullets, all these bandaids become less important. Just smooth size, use LRMP and pull the trigger works well for me, at least, when I shoot the 275 & 300 AMs at 2800-3000+ out of my heaviest 40.
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on Feb 4, 2023 17:46:26 GMT -5
Tar, I’m convinced that each has their place. For what I shoot in my light 40 , I prefer full sized. In my heavy 40, I still shoot both 402 (Pittmans) and 4085 P Hammers fullsized. But, as the pressures go up, the quicker the smooth sized obturate and I see no accuracy difference FS to SS at the comparatively high pressures shot by most on this board. With the Scout, do you even have the option to FS? Again. Like most questions on smokeless MLing, the rifle and it’s end use determine the best answer. Sometimes, it’s a saboted bullet, other times, smooth sized, full sized, some heavier, and slower igniting powder loads do better with LRMPs while my lighter loads actually seem as good or better with LRPs. Wads verses no wads. Annealing, etc.. There is just no “One size fits all”. I do not have the option to FS with the Scout...but I am thinking about a light as I can reasonably build .45 bolt rifle...the old .45 Sav/Pacs I put together were just to heavy to pack long distance...but as I listen to these well thought out replies I am leaning heavily towards smooth forming period..
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on Feb 4, 2023 17:58:10 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for your input!It is appreciated!
|
|
|
Post by hillbill on Feb 5, 2023 12:54:11 GMT -5
For .45 caliber Full form options are very limited, .458 bullets are out there but very few that are popular for what we do. I have full formed a lot of bullets over time and one is better off smooth sizing for the .458 bore given the bullet options we have today.
I full form 303 hard cores for my Kreiger pistol bore barrel, without a very big press the hard cores are pretty tough to push through. Smaller calibers than .40 MUST be full form only, I'm full forming some .40 bullets as well with good results.
The smaller the bore the greater the bullet density, higher bullet density = hard to obturate bullets. sometimes full forming is the only way to shoot a particular bullet in a smaller bore.
|
|
|
Post by billyboy on Feb 5, 2023 13:22:36 GMT -5
I do not have the option to FS with the Scout... Hank may have a Barrel Drop from buckeye68's Shortened Scout Named "Loudmouth"?
|
|
|
Post by buckeye68 on Feb 5, 2023 16:33:24 GMT -5
I do not have the option to FS with the Scout... Hank may have a Barrel Drop from buckeye68's Shortened Scout Named "Loudmouth"? Loudmouth’s barrel drop is for sale by the inch….. 😂
|
|
|
Post by hillbill on Feb 5, 2023 20:33:27 GMT -5
Full form stuff to come
|
|
|
Post by hillbill on Feb 5, 2023 20:36:16 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by hillbill on Feb 5, 2023 20:47:37 GMT -5
So the first two are of a full formed bullet 3rd is the rough measurement which is not absolutely correct since this is a 6 land barrel Next is a custom funnel for loading powder then loading the bullet thru the brake, the funnel must grip the bullet to be able to insert it into the barrel 4th pic shows a step inside the funnel about .300 in, past that the funnel dia is about .445, it allows the bullet to stay centered with the step hitting the ojive of the bullet. Next pic shows the bullet in the funnel, it will not fall out, (fricton fit) , it allows the bullet to be inserted into the crown and while rotating it engages the lands starting down the barrel. you can then slide the ramrod thru the funnel seating the bullet.
As you can see full forming is a little more complicated than smooth form but very doable as far as the loading process goes.
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on Feb 8, 2023 5:08:20 GMT -5
Question Hillbill....I was checking out the Redding ultra mag press knowing that the hand press would not cut it smooth forming annealed copper bullets...have you ran annealed copper bullets through your Redding?
|
|
|
Post by hillbill on Feb 8, 2023 5:46:00 GMT -5
Yes I have and they go thru fine, annealed bullets also go through my RCBS easy enough.
I run unannealed Hammers through the Ultramag, you must lean on it some but it's very doable.
|
|
|
Post by jims on Feb 8, 2023 8:16:04 GMT -5
That is good to know about the Ultramag.
|
|