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Post by tar12 on Feb 3, 2023 19:10:09 GMT -5
Going to be bedding the Hankins base on a CVA Scout and was wondering which Devcon product to use?
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Post by jeepeater on Feb 3, 2023 19:44:57 GMT -5
I’ve used Devcon 10110 for bedding. It’s low shrink, has good wear properties due to the embedded steel, but not needed in these cases. It needs to be weighed pretty precisely to get the correct ratio.
JB weld original is what I normally use for bases. It’s easy to get the right ratio, has higher PSI strength, and it’s cheaper.
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Post by hillbill on Feb 3, 2023 21:12:10 GMT -5
JB for bases also.
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Post by 71yella2 on Feb 3, 2023 22:19:21 GMT -5
+1
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Post by hillbill on Feb 3, 2023 22:29:32 GMT -5
I JB every single base I put on a smokeless gun, every one.
Learned the hard way after many years and many loose bases.
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Post by buckeye68 on Feb 3, 2023 22:36:45 GMT -5
JB Weld works great and it’s easy to find just about anywhere. I always buy the high strength version.
I personally mount the front scope ring as close to the screw or over top of the screw as possible and cut off the excess pic rail in front of the ring. That’s what I do anyways.
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Post by tar12 on Feb 4, 2023 7:08:55 GMT -5
I JB every single base I put on a smokeless gun, every one. Learned the hard way after many years and many loose bases. I watched Hankins video where he was only bedding a small area around the front screw that only made contact with the barrel...but you are talking about bedding the entire length of the base right? |
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Post by hillbill on Feb 4, 2023 7:35:49 GMT -5
Yes bed the whole thing, What action will you be bedding? reason I ask is if it's a factory Remington I do it a little differently. Factory Remington actions tend to be out of spec, here's how you check, put the rail on the action, tighten the front action screws, most of the time there will be space between the rail and the action on the rear. The only reason I mention this is a LOT of guys reading this use Remington actions, If anyone needs to know more let me know.
I see where you said it's a scout, if so disregard but make sure you use a good machined base, Jeff sells a good one. If it's not a Remington action put the JB on the base, torque to spec and clean off the ooze with q-tips and alcohol. Keep in mind after using epoxy one must heat the base to remove it. I have never had a base come loose since I started using epoxy on them, none. |
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Post by tar12 on Feb 4, 2023 8:00:04 GMT -5
Yes bed the whole thing, What action will you be bedding? reason I ask is if it's a factory Remington I do it a little differently. Factory Remington actions tend to be out of spec, here's how you check, put the rail on the action, tighten the front action screws, most of the time there will be space between the rail and the action on the rear. The only reason I mention this is a LOT of guys reading this use Remington actions, If anyone needs to know more let me know.
I see where you said it's a scout, if so disregard but make sure you use a good machined base, Jeff sells a good one. If it's not a Remington action put the JB on the base, torque to spec and clean off the ooze with q-tips and alcohol. Keep in mind after using epoxy one must heat the base to remove it. I have never had a base come loose since I started using epoxy on them, none. It is a Hankins converted CVA Scout... |
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Post by james72 on Feb 6, 2023 21:57:56 GMT -5
Just for clarification are you guys talking about applying a release agent like wax or something to the gun before bedding so that the rail is still removable, or do you mean to apply JB Weld directly so that the base is no longer removable?
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Post by buckeye68 on Feb 6, 2023 23:10:24 GMT -5
I applied mine without a release agent.
I will come off with a little heat if you need to take it off for some reason.
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Post by hillbill on Feb 7, 2023 5:20:31 GMT -5
no release agent, I've done them with release agent on the barrel and eventually it still worked its way loose.
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Post by james72 on Feb 7, 2023 9:14:22 GMT -5
Thanks guys. Do you do anything to keep the JB weld away from the base screws and tapped holes.
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Post by jeepeater on Feb 8, 2023 0:04:41 GMT -5
Thanks guys. Do you do anything to keep the JB weld away from the base screws and tapped holes. If you’re careful and don’t put too much JB on the base, there won’t be a lot squeeze up into the holes or in the threads. I use Q-tips to clean what does squeeze into the holes. I’ve never had a problem with the JB acting like a thread locker even if there’s some on the threads. |
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Post by rickh on Feb 9, 2023 11:34:26 GMT -5
Apologize in advance for the long-winded message but a number of questions. And I promise I won’t get pissy if you think some of what I think is dumb or wrong-minded. Thick skin- I won’t boo-hoo. Just trying to learn from those that obviously been doing this longer than I have and know more than I do:
Does anyone think bedding the base is sometimes unnecessary?
Do you bed the base to prevent base slippage or to stop the base from distorting with torqueing the screws to the action (which then brings up another questions about lapping rings if they don’t align properly) Or both?
Do you check how straight the top of the rail is prior to installing the base and prior to installing the rings? If not straight, do you lap your rings? In talking with Night Force reps they strongly discourage lapping the rings.
Here is my situation:
I have a MZL that Jeff built on a Remington 700 short action. I have a NEAR base on it. NEAR bases comes with a lug that protrudes below the base and bears on the front of the breach opening. I assume that would prevent any slippage for the first mode of the recoil process as the gun moves rearward and scope wants to stay where it is – or from a reference frame of the gun- scope wants to move forward relative to action. Opposite directional forces from subsequent oscillations of the recoil process rely on the screw tension which in turn causes friction between the base and action. There is no actual shear on the screws until you get slippage and some appreciable movement (at least that his how bridge bolts work! The shear at the joint is actually resisted by friction between the faying surfaces caused by the tension in the bolts squeezing the plates together). I did not bed my base. I checked the straightness of the base prior to installation with a very straight piece machined tubing (tight tolerances) . Quite straight. One or two of the ridges in the center of the base had some daylight. After installation 6 of the center ridges had a small amount of daylight. I assume that the torque on the screws was bending the base slightly to match the contour of the top of the action. I used a NEAR one-piece ALPHA Mount rings (2 top halves in the front and one in the rear- so 3 ring tops and 12 ring screws total) and a Vortex scope. The gun shot quite well- better than I can. And as best as I can tell the base never moved and screws stayed tight and zero stayed true.
Then I decided to use that Vortex scope on another gun and put a Night Force on this one. So I got Jeff’s 34mm rings. I checked the base straightness again – same as before and all screws were still tight- I had previously put about 350-400 rounds through- 275 grain bullet at about 3,00 fps. So I mounted the rings over the ridges that seemed to be in line- avoiding those in the middle that were slightly low. The scope seemed to fit in the rings really well. Tightened the ring screws to spec. So I figured all was good (put the lapping issue out of my mind). Not so fast! Then I noticed that it was quite difficult to adjust the power ring. So I took the scope out of the rings and turned the power ring- smooth as silk and little effort. My rear ring was very close to the back of the tube so I figured the clamping force was squeezing the internal mechanism- surprised as I definitely did not overtighten screws and NF scopes are supposed to have a thicker tube wall. Then I moved the rear ring one slot forward (much closer to the center of the tube section between the power ring and reticle adjustment housing). This placed the ring over 2 of the “low ridges” on the base (Jeff’s rings sit on 4 ridges each- the 2 center ones fully and the outside ones are partially covered). I was concerned the scope might not sit in the rings properly, but as best I could tell it was OK. So tightened the ring screws to spec. Power adjustment ring now moved smoothly but still with just slightly more effort than when loose- a bit surprised. As soon as I get a chance I’ll sight it in and put a bunch through.
I prefer not to bed the base because honestly I’m not very good with meticulous things. I try to make things perfect and end up screwing it up! Broke most of my fingers multiple times and much better at splitting & stacking firewood than performing surgery.
I figure if the base loosens I can then go the bedding route. But I am concerned that since the NF scope is much heavier than the Vortex there will be more demand on the base because of its greater inertia. So am I being foolish to not bed the base???
Hill Bill, yes I would be interested in your bedding procedure for Remington actions. I’m guessing that JB goes on the base ( with some margin away from the screw holes). Base screws are tightened to some nominal torque (but even). Let the JB cure – then fully tighten the screws. About right? And this would be dependent on the base being “perfectly” straight (I know nothing is perfect) to start with.
Look forward to hearing from you guys- Mark, Hill Bill, Richard, Jim Bob and anyone else w lots of experience.
Thanks.
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Post by jeepeater on Feb 9, 2023 13:53:20 GMT -5
Apologize in advance for the long-winded message but a number of questions. And I promise I won’t get pissy if you think some of what I think is dumb or wrong-minded. Thick skin- I won’t boo-hoo. Just trying to learn from those that obviously been doing this longer than I have and know more than I do: Does anyone think bedding the base is sometimes unnecessary? Do you bed the base to prevent base slippage or to stop the base from distorting with torqueing the screws to the action (which then brings up another questions about lapping rings if they don’t align properly) Or both? Do you check how straight the top of the rail is prior to installing the base and prior to installing the rings? If not straight, do you lap your rings? In talking with Night Force reps they strongly discourage lapping the rings. Here is my situation: I have a MZL that Jeff built on a Remington 700 short action. I have a NEAR base on it. NEAR bases comes with a lug that protrudes below the base and bears on the front of the breach opening. I assume that would prevent any slippage for the first mode of the recoil process as the gun moves rearward and scope wants to stay where it is – or from a reference frame of the gun- scope wants to move forward relative to action. Opposite directional forces from subsequent oscillations of the recoil process rely on the screw tension which in turn causes friction between the base and action. There is no actual shear on the screws until you get slippage and some appreciable movement (at least that his how bridge bolts work! The shear at the joint is actually resisted by friction between the faying surfaces caused by the tension in the bolts squeezing the plates together). I did not bed my base. I checked the straightness of the base prior to installation with a very straight piece machined tubing (tight tolerances) . Quite straight. One or two of the ridges in the center of the base had some daylight. After installation 6 of the center ridges had a small amount of daylight. I assume that the torque on the screws was bending the base slightly to match the contour of the top of the action. I used a NEAR one-piece ALPHA Mount rings (2 top halves in the front and one in the rear- so 3 ring tops and 12 ring screws total) and a Vortex scope. The gun shot quite well- better than I can. And as best as I can tell the base never moved and screws stayed tight and zero stayed true. Then I decided to use that Vortex scope on another gun and put a Night Force on this one. So I got Jeff’s 34mm rings. I checked the base straightness again – same as before and all screws were still tight- I had previously put about 350-400 rounds through- 275 grain bullet at about 3,00 fps. So I mounted the rings over the ridges that seemed to be in line- avoiding those in the middle that were slightly low. The scope seemed to fit in the rings really well. Tightened the ring screws to spec. So I figured all was good (put the lapping issue out of my mind). Not so fast! Then I noticed that it was quite difficult to adjust the power ring. So I took the scope out of the rings and turned the power ring- smooth as silk and little effort. My rear ring was very close to the back of the tube so I figured the clamping force was squeezing the internal mechanism- surprised as I definitely did not overtighten screws and NF scopes are supposed to have a thicker tube wall. Then I moved the rear ring one slot forward (much closer to the center of the tube section between the power ring and reticle adjustment housing). This placed the ring over 2 of the “low ridges” on the base (Jeff’s rings sit on 4 ridges each- the 2 center ones fully and the outside ones are partially covered). I was concerned the scope might not sit in the rings properly, but as best I could tell it was OK. So tightened the ring screws to spec. Power adjustment ring now moved smoothly but still with just slightly more effort than when loose- a bit surprised. As soon as I get a chance I’ll sight it in and put a bunch through. I prefer not to bed the base because honestly I’m not very good with meticulous things. I try to make things perfect and end up screwing it up! Broke most of my fingers multiple times and much better at splitting & stacking firewood than performing surgery. I figure if the base loosens I can then go the bedding route. But I am concerned that since the NF scope is much heavier than the Vortex there will be more demand on the base because of its greater inertia. So am I being foolish to not bed the base??? Hill Bill, yes I would be interested in your bedding procedure for Remington actions. I’m guessing that JB goes on the base ( with some margin away from the screw holes). Base screws are tightened to some nominal torque (but even). Let the JB cure – then fully tighten the screws. About right? And this would be dependent on the base being “perfectly” straight (I know nothing is perfect) to start with. Look forward to hearing from you guys- Mark, Hill Bill, Richard, Jim Bob and anyone else w lots of experience. Thanks. I’ve never really had issues with bases coming loose until I started shooting heavier bullets at higher velocity. The recoil eventually takes its toll. Late last year I had a base come loose on a Mesa/Brux action that I got from Jeff. The base is pinned on, and I had cleaned and torqued the screws, but I did not bed it. It wasn’t the forces moving forward and rearward that caused the loosening because the pins prevent that. I had probably 150ish shots on the setup with a variety of loads. There were no issues through 100 or so rounds of 275’s at ~3000 fps. The next 50ish rounds were a mix of 300’s at ~3200 fps, and 325’s at about 3100 fps. The recoil of the 275’s with 78 grains of 4198 is significantly less than the 300 and 325’s with over 100 grains of H4895. There’s a lot of recoil force, so bedding in my opinion is if nothing else, is a little more insurance. I had already epoxied the bases on my CVA Scouts due to the bases being mounted directly on the barrel, and should have done the same on the bolt action. That loose base was the cause of a wounded deer. The deer was recovered with the help of tracking dogs, but still, it was a terrible day for me. |
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Post by Richard on Feb 9, 2023 15:12:00 GMT -5
Rick...When you bed the base, (do put some release agent on the screws) just lightly tighten the screws until the base makes contact with the receiver. Go slowly watching the JB (I use Marine Tex) ooze out. When you know you have contact, jus slightly back off the screws so there is no tension on the base. Let dry! I generally mask off around the entire base AND the action to allow for easy clean up. Once the JB has cured, remove the screws and de grease. Then apply blue lock-tite and tighten.
A heat gun or propane torch on the mount will easily break the bond for removal if necessary.
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Post by hillbill on Feb 9, 2023 15:31:50 GMT -5
Ok, so take this for what it's worth, JMO. Many think bedding a base is not necessary, I will have to disagree. IF you shoot higher end loads long enough with ANY action outside of using one with an integral base you Will have your base screws loosen, pinned or not pinned. been there, done that and have seen others have the same problem many times. I'm not talking about the guys that shoot 20 shots per year, I'm talking about the guys that shoot 200+ with upper end loads, sooner or later you will experience the same thing, trust me. I fully bed my bases, yes I let the JB run into the screw threads or wherever it wants, no space leaves no room for vibration, vibration is the demon here, not just shear force. Yes you must heat the base and screws to remove them but once I put it on it's there for the duration most of the time, If not it's not the end of the world. Factory Remington actions:
Start with a high quality machined base, Jeff makes a good one with a stop and there are many others, don't skimp here, a few more bucks is well spent . I never use a 2 piece base on these guns for several reasons, alignment issues being the main one. I screw the front action screw in first to make sure it's not bottoming out, you would be surprised how many do and if that's the case that front screw is useless until shortened. install both front screws and snug them down, most of the time on a 700 action the rear of the base will not be touching, this is the biggie. If tightened down when you install the scope it in effect bends it, many problems there.
I like to have the 6-48s opened up to 8-40 if possible, 8-40s are much stronger, if not all the more reason to bed the base. You can buy 700 bases with 8-40 screws and holes.
so drop the screws into the base and take a bit of tape and place over them to keep them from falling out when you turn it over. make sure the action and base are oil free by wiping with alcohol, mix JB and place on the contact surfaces of the base, it don't take a bunch to get full coverage. place the base close to the action and start the front 2 screws while getting them started, start the rear as well, snug the front and go ahead and torque to 25 in lbs run the rear down until you see the ooze on the rear swell slightly and then remove the screws. Take q-tips with alcohol and clean the holes well, clean the screws well with a tooth brush and alcohol and set them aside.
clean all the ooze off the action and base with more q-tips and alcohol, make sure to get it all. let it dry for 24 hrs and use blue loc tite on the rear screws torquing to 25 in lbs. (30 in lbs for 8-40s)
you should have a flat base that stays put for the long haul.
I have used release agent on the actions many times but eventually they work loose.
Keep in mind this is just my opinion and others will disagree but it works for me.
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Post by jimbob on Feb 9, 2023 20:08:47 GMT -5
I either use Jeff’s or Nightforce bases I use JB clear 5 minute epoxy use a small amount in lines across the base between the screws
Finger tighten the screws then I use lacquer thinner and q tips to clean what squeeze out then remove screws and clean any epoxy that might be on them then use blue locktite on screws and torque to specs I’ve had good success using this method
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Post by dannoboone on Feb 10, 2023 13:22:00 GMT -5
To ensure no screws get stuck from overflow, I use a release agent
(Kiwi clear) on all holes and threads. May not be needed, but sure
gives peace of mind.
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